Page 4 | Tiny school Vs larger school

Stryke · 2023-04-27T13:29:11+00:00

Hi We are relocating and I need to look at schools in our new area. I have been advised that there are places in two schools. The children will be going in to Y4 and Y6. We have come from a school of two-form years. So 60 kids per year. School A has one form entry, and is currently extra undersubscribed anyway. School B has four, with currently only two places in each year we require. There is no in-between. They are near enough equal in other aspects. Provision for after school activities looks neat enough equal (larger school has slightly more choice, but I am hearing waiting lists. Both kids keen to do extra curricular dance and/or singing/choir). Based on year size alone, which would you pick?

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mafsfan · 27/04/2023 20:01

Budgets are ridiculously tight these days. Pupil premium funding brings in a vital source of income. Schools with lower PP numbers will be surviving on their bare bones funding for the government. Schools with more PP funding will have a bigger pot to boost government funding.

We have very little PP funding. We struggle to have enough paper, glue sticks and whiteboard pens. Card is unheard of. Parents would have no idea because teachers tend to buy a lot of resources themselves.

Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 20:09

mafsfan · 27/04/2023 19:57

I teach in a one form entry school. It's not a tiny a school by a long stretch (we're the biggest school in our locality!) but it's obviously different to a school with 2 or more classes per year group.

An intake of 22-25 will be concerning for the school, whether or not parents are aware of that! They need to be trying to maintain at least 180 pupils to continue to operate with 7 classes. Below 180 and there could be pressure to close one class (30 x 6 = 180 so you'd only need 6 teachers) in order to save money.

Workload for the teachers in a one form entry is brutal, as has been previously mentioned. That again may not be known by the parents.

One form entry allows the teacher much more flexibility in what and when they deliver the curriculum. Multi form entry schools tend to be very prescriptive on what is taught and when these days in order to ensure that each class within a year group is identical.

Multi form entry schools can be very nurturing. It will be different to a one form entry but you are likely to have a year group leader who takes on the role as the pastoral lead for that year group and the teachers will work closely together. These staff will know your child very well. The head and deputy are unlikely to unless they have a lot of dealings with your child!

Pros and cons to both!

Thank you for this information, that's very enlightening. Maybe why the Head was so super keen to have us then!!!

I'm definitely hearing the pros and cons, and still feeling undecided.

If you couldn't decide like me, are there any other factors I should be thinking about? Thank you for your time.

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Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 20:10

mafsfan · 27/04/2023 20:01

Budgets are ridiculously tight these days. Pupil premium funding brings in a vital source of income. Schools with lower PP numbers will be surviving on their bare bones funding for the government. Schools with more PP funding will have a bigger pot to boost government funding.

We have very little PP funding. We struggle to have enough paper, glue sticks and whiteboard pens. Card is unheard of. Parents would have no idea because teachers tend to buy a lot of resources themselves.

I see. How do pupils qualify for PP?

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HarleyLane · 27/04/2023 20:14

One form entry quite usual here. Admission numbers (PAN) is 30 ( infant class size).
A large school here would be a PAN of 60.

Our local small schools might have a PAN of 4 per year.

There maybe mixed classes as the PAN is 15 for instance. All quite usual and with not an indicator of a school about to close.

Pipsquiggle · 27/04/2023 20:42

@Stryke do you know anyone where you are relocating to?

If not, please read my post

Floreathlon · 27/04/2023 20:47

Admin staff is the one that runs big schools OP, mine used to go to one of those giants. Issues are dealt in a bureaucratic non-decision manner. The main advantage of large schools is facilities, extras and sets. Your perception is that the facilities and extras are comparable. How about sets, as they will be important from Y7 onwards

Floreathlon · 27/04/2023 20:51

Everything else being equal, smaller is better in my view, but I really doubt that everything else will be equal

Mischance · 27/04/2023 20:51

Smaller schools tend to be less rigid because they do not have to factor in the "crowd control" element of larger schools.

Riverlee · 27/04/2023 20:55

Have you considered putting on a ‘Whats xyz and abc school like?’ on the local Facebook page? Occurs quite a lot here. I was surprised recently to find quite alot of negative comments on a newish school in the area. They may highlight pluses and negatives of the two schools.

WEEonline · 27/04/2023 21:07

Easy! Ask for a taster day at each school, then decide

NCTDN · 27/04/2023 21:08

Lots of info on pupil premium

NCTDN · 27/04/2023 21:10

So even if each pp child gets just 1.5k, ten children would allow the school to employ a learning assistant for example. The more children, the more money = the more resources.

NCTDN · 27/04/2023 21:11

@mafsfan do you work in my school?

Flowertight · 27/04/2023 21:13

Larger for sure. The one from entry school here only had about 10 pupils left in it by year 6. Almost everyone else had moved away. Doesn’t leave much room for friendship development

Jules912 · 27/04/2023 21:39

If you really can't decide go for the closest, especially if it's the difference between being able to walk or not.

clary · 27/04/2023 22:39

Op I hear you on the small school(it's not tiny after all) but I would personally go large. My dc went to infant and junior with 80 pupils in a year. The infant school was so nurturing and lovely, thanks to the super staff tbh, led by the HT.
The Juniors was great too. Dc had good chance to make friends with like minded kids and lots of opportunities eg there was a mini orchestra and a good choice of sports teams.

Eight form entry for secondary is not huge btw, it's really usual. Big would be 2000 students so 400 in a year; 600 would be small. 1000 or so is regular.

Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 23:42

Pipsquiggle · 27/04/2023 15:29

I would also have a look at pick ups and drop offs and see if any of the parents feel more like your tribe or not.

When I relocated, we didn't get a choice, DC was allocated the 6th closest school. TBH some of the parents were just awful (most were nice), but they really dragged the school down. At one point a police officer was stationed at the school gate as some parents had started fighting. We were on the waiting list for our 3 closest schools and we got a spot just over a year later (we were about to move DC to private school). I made no real friends here.

Once my DC had moved to a local village school, it enormously benefitted my social circle as well. I have made some really good friends who I treasure.

The best piece of advice I got was from a careers counsellor (had just been made redundant and was part of the leaving package).
I was telling her we were thinking of relocating as being made redundant meant I wasn't locked to this area any more. She asked me how old were my DC, I replied 'primary.'
She said 'Go! Parents make so many friends at primary school, it's harder if they're at secondary school as you aren't around'

I would definitely think about yourself in this equation too, particularly if you don't know many people. I knew no one locally when I moved.

Thank you for pointing me back to your post, I am sorry I had overlooked it, especially as it's so good! Great suggestions, thank you!

Crikey! That all sounds a bit dramatic!

I will definitely take on your suggestion and go stalk the parents at collection time (am hoping they're gonna be my new Motherland tribe).

It's definitely on my radar that we need to make friends and feel like part of the local community. I do know a handful of people a little way away as the move brings me back to near-ish where I'm from, having been away for a decade, but none have kids the same ages as mine. Well, one does, but they are half an hour away which isn't much, but we need friends closer, ideally.

I hope you have found your tribe since you moved.

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Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 23:45

Floreathlon · 27/04/2023 20:47

Admin staff is the one that runs big schools OP, mine used to go to one of those giants. Issues are dealt in a bureaucratic non-decision manner. The main advantage of large schools is facilities, extras and sets. Your perception is that the facilities and extras are comparable. How about sets, as they will be important from Y7 onwards

I see. This feels quite new to me. Admin lady REALLY could not have been less suited to dealing with children and prospective parents, imho, but hopeful she was just having a bad day. If not, I feel we should pick the small school! Facilities wise, I feel if school can cover the core subjects, DC can do the extras at clubs, if need be.

I don't know about sets. I guess they are set at the big school, and not the small.

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Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 23:47

Mischance · 27/04/2023 20:51

Smaller schools tend to be less rigid because they do not have to factor in the "crowd control" element of larger schools.

I did get that vibe a bit at the bigger school. And the smaller school felt less chaotic. I think my youngest child would prefer the smaller one at this stage, and if by the end of Y4 it's proving too small, we could consider moving to a larger school, depending on availability, of course.

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Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 23:48

Riverlee · 27/04/2023 20:55

Have you considered putting on a ‘Whats xyz and abc school like?’ on the local Facebook page? Occurs quite a lot here. I was surprised recently to find quite alot of negative comments on a newish school in the area. They may highlight pluses and negatives of the two schools.

Ooh, I did not. I'm off to go do that once I've finished replying here! Thank you!

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Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 23:49

WEEonline · 27/04/2023 21:07

Easy! Ask for a taster day at each school, then decide

I didn't know this was a thing! Will definitely look into that.

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toomuchlaundry · 27/04/2023 23:50

Are either schools part of an Academy Trust?

Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 23:50

NCTDN · 27/04/2023 21:10

So even if each pp child gets just 1.5k, ten children would allow the school to employ a learning assistant for example. The more children, the more money = the more resources.

This is good to know, thank you!

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Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 23:51

toomuchlaundry · 27/04/2023 23:50

Are either schools part of an Academy Trust?

No. May I ask what difference that would make? I'm also keeping an eye on the one that is currently full, which is.

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Original poster

Stryke · 27/04/2023 23:53

clary · 27/04/2023 22:39

Op I hear you on the small school(it's not tiny after all) but I would personally go large. My dc went to infant and junior with 80 pupils in a year. The infant school was so nurturing and lovely, thanks to the super staff tbh, led by the HT.
The Juniors was great too. Dc had good chance to make friends with like minded kids and lots of opportunities eg there was a mini orchestra and a good choice of sports teams.

Eight form entry for secondary is not huge btw, it's really usual. Big would be 2000 students so 400 in a year; 600 would be small. 1000 or so is regular.

I think I've led a very sheltered life where these numbers seem big to me! But I accept it's pretty average after starting this thread.

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