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Original poster

Tiny school Vs larger school

112 replies

Stryke · 27/04/2023 14:29

Hi

We are relocating and I need to look at schools in our new area. I have been advised that there are places in two schools.

The children will be going in to Y4 and Y6.

We have come from a school of two-form years. So 60 kids per year.

School A has one form entry, and is currently extra undersubscribed anyway.
School B has four, with currently only two places in each year we require.

There is no in-between.

They are near enough equal in other aspects. Provision for after school activities looks neat enough equal (larger school has slightly more choice, but I am hearing waiting lists. Both kids keen to do extra curricular dance and/or singing/choir).

Based on year size alone, which would you pick?

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 18:35

SpottyUnicorn · 27/04/2023 14:57

Based on my experience, I'd chose the small school.
DC goes to an undersubscribed CofE village school and he loves it. They have a very personal approach- all the teachers, incl the head teacher, know him and vice versa. Due to the size of the school he also spends a lot of time with older kids and has many significantly older friends, which the school encourages. Also, as he only has 16 children in his class (vs 30 in big schools), he gets much more attention and help.

His older brother went to a big school and while he was expected to get to the same secondary school than most of his friends, he didn't. Which in all honesty wasn't really an issue, as within just a few weeks he had already made many new friends.

Go and see both schools, see how much time and effort the schools puts into showing you around, make sure they have wraparound care (if you need that), etc.

Mixing with kids from other years does appeal, as opposed to 120 kids all aged the same. I have no idea how much mingling they do though. But something to think about.

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 18:40

ItsCalledAConversation · 27/04/2023 15:04

We chose a smaller (tiny - 140 kids total) village school over a big oversubscribed local school. My kids are happy, there is individualised teaching, breakout groups (eg for maths/English support or extras), plenty of after school clubs and a fantastic community. Plenty of events through the year, sports day, school productions, the works.

The school also feeds into our preferred secondary, whereas the larger school didn’t.

When they enter secondary they will know a few people from school, a few from out of school clubs, and a few in the years above too. They’ll be secure and confident in themselves and their individuality. Couldn’t recommend a smaller and more nurturing environment. But each to their own!

It's the potentially more nurturing environment that I think may benefit my kids, but I would hope larger schools offer that too. This is why I am so torn, as it's hard to know from the limited tour we had. I do think the vibe in general from the smaller school was nice, but it might just have been that the admin staff from the larger school took any shine off that one for us.

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 18:42

Skybluepinky · 27/04/2023 16:44

Larger school, if worries me that the other one is undersubscribed, and in smaller schools if there are disruptive children it doesn’t take many in a small class to impact everyone’s learning.

Can you tell me what worries you, especially, about it being under subscribed?

It's got a good Ofsted, equal to the larger school. I'm not sure how else to judge it, other than our brief tour, which we felt made it feel pretty lovely. I have not managed to find much online from recent or current parents though.

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 18:44

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 27/04/2023 16:54

Lots of reasons.

Larger schools have economies of scale, so they tend to have more/better resources overall even if it's the same level of funding per pupil.

Larger schools have more teachers so they bring together a broader range of skills and expertise and can share the load between them more effectively. E.g. year group teachers can share planning instead of doing everything by themselves. Subject leads can have one dedicated area of responsibility rather than having to juggle umpteen different hats because there is nobody else to do it!

Larger schools also tend to offer better opportunities with regard to extracurricular activities etc because there are more teachers to share the load and they will have a range of skills and interests between them. Plus enough pupils to make a range of activities viable.

Larger schools also have more pupils so offer a much wider network of potential friends. You're more likely to find other children who your kids will gel with, and there is scope to switch up classes etc if individual children are clashing etc.

Show quote history

Thanks sooo much for writing all that up for me, that really is most useful, and food for thought. Much appreciated.

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NameChange30 · 27/04/2023 18:48

If I were you I would ask to talk to a senior
member of staff at the bigger school; headteacher, deputy, head of KS2 (if there is such a thing?) or head of year. Of course they won't necessarily be teaching your children but I do think the leadership team kind of set the tone IYSWIM. It's not a good sign that the admin person wasn't very warm and friendly, and that might be reflected elsewhere, or you might find that the attitude of other staff puts you more at ease.

Do you have any questions that are specific to your children and their needs?

If I'm undecided I generally tend to try and get more information. But ultimately you have to go with your gut.

Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 18:48

CatOnTheChair · 27/04/2023 15:59

I think 2 or 3 form is the sweet spot.
So, I'd go on gut feel of the school or logistics.
If it might be needed, do both have any after-school care (ie childcare to allow you to work) rather than clubs and activities?

Ha! I think so!!! But I have the choice of 1 or 4 forms! There actually is a 3form school nearby, but it's currently full.

Both seem equal in terms of after school care. The larger school is an extra ten minutes' walk, though is in the direction of the secondary we'd like, so it might be nice once eldest is at secondary to walk part way together, rather than in opposite directions.

One thing I did prefer about the smaller school was the building. It's an old-fashioned quaint building. The 4form one is a purpose built big block. The little one was just so cute!

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NameChange30 · 27/04/2023 18:49

Seriously?! 🙄

thesmee · 27/04/2023 18:56

Sports are often mentioned on MN but I think our small school pupils get more oppirtunities. We take the whole year group and everyone gets to play every time. We have A, B and C teams across Y5/6 for some sports. We have also run classes of less than 20 for some years and will continue to do so. Not all small schools hopelessly underfunded. I went to a single form primary and found it plenty big enough - I was ready for secondary at the end, but didn't feel I'd outgrown it particularly.

Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 18:57

NameChange30 · 27/04/2023 18:48

If I were you I would ask to talk to a senior
member of staff at the bigger school; headteacher, deputy, head of KS2 (if there is such a thing?) or head of year. Of course they won't necessarily be teaching your children but I do think the leadership team kind of set the tone IYSWIM. It's not a good sign that the admin person wasn't very warm and friendly, and that might be reflected elsewhere, or you might find that the attitude of other staff puts you more at ease.

Do you have any questions that are specific to your children and their needs?

If I'm undecided I generally tend to try and get more information. But ultimately you have to go with your gut.

I will definitely look at this, so thank you for setting it out. I have been wondering about doing this, but unsure if it was the done thing. Also, the person I'd have to liaise with to set this up is probably the admin person who did our tour, who even on email is very abrupt, and writes like she has better things to do. So I'm wondering how to approach this!

Not really re specifics re my kids.
Eldest is easy, happy anywhere, only has a year til secondary and not bothered either way.
Youngest is at the very playful stage and likes the set up of the smaller school re playground facilities, gymnastics hall, music room etc, and the cosy library.

I wish I had a gut feeling. I feel I do lean towards the smaller one, and whilst I think dc1 will be absolutely fine either way, dc2 might be better off at the small school for a year or two, but may prefer the larger one for years 5 and 6. Not sure if that's a disastrous back up plan though.

I'm genuinely torn, hence looking for advice on here.

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 18:58

NameChange30 · 27/04/2023 18:49

Seriously?! 🙄

?

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 19:01

thesmee · 27/04/2023 18:56

Sports are often mentioned on MN but I think our small school pupils get more oppirtunities. We take the whole year group and everyone gets to play every time. We have A, B and C teams across Y5/6 for some sports. We have also run classes of less than 20 for some years and will continue to do so. Not all small schools hopelessly underfunded. I went to a single form primary and found it plenty big enough - I was ready for secondary at the end, but didn't feel I'd outgrown it particularly.

Dc1 will access sports outside of school - I have already got a couple of great facilities lined up, so I am not hugely worried if this isn't optimal at either school, just a bonus if it is.
Dc2 likewise has two EC sports things on the horizon that fit the bill outside of school and will expose them both to more local kids not necessarily at their schools.

I think a nice sports setting within the school would be great for both kids, but hard to really tell which was better out of the two on offer.

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WaitingfortheTardis · 27/04/2023 19:05

Having experienced a variety of both types of schools I would always go for the smaller. Of course it is only personal experience, but I've found them to be far more nurturing than larger ones in general. I think one form entry is best, but actually think two form entry max is big enough for any primary as I feel that more than that can be very overwhelming for young children.

saffy56 · 27/04/2023 19:16

My sister lived in London and her kids went to a huge multicultural school with a substantial amount of PP children and also a good number of children from wealthy families. She loved the school but not London for bringing up children so they moved to a more rural location. The kids are now in a 1 form entry outstanding school with no children from ethnic minorities and very few PP children. This school on paper is amazing and has its own forest school attached and every child is well behaved. She chose the school because of its cute quaint rural location but she feels it isn't setting them up for real life as they will have to to go to a big secondary in the main town where they will come across children from different backgrounds and she feels that this quaint white middle class school is going to hinder them. So much so she is in 2 minds whether to move them to a bigger school in not such a nice area that has more opportunities than this school but has children from all walks of life.

Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 19:18

NCTDN · 27/04/2023 15:16

Esp given you have ay6 child making a change of schools now, I'd go for the bigger one. If he/she makes friends more, the chances are they'll have friends at secondary.
But more importantly...
I'm a primary school teacher in a one form entry school. I'd love to advocate the same school. But the reality is that we are seriously understaffed and overworked. As there are only 7 teachers, every teacher has at least one subject to lead (most have two) in addition to being responsible for their own class obviously. The senco will have that as an additional role. Plus one of those same teachers are curriculum, assessment and behaviour leads.
Ex colleagues have gone to work in larger schools and and immediately happier. Workload is shared more - eg when planning, one teacher plans maths and the other English. Not every teacher is made to be a lead on a subject. Not every teacher needs to take assemblies in a weekly basis etc etc.
I know this is a generalisation and I'm sorry to paint a negative picture of one form schools, but that's the reality.

Thank you so much for info.
The vibe I got from the small school was that the teachers all seemed very happy, it was cosy and comfortable. I may be very wrong, but at primary level, I think I lean to it being more important for kids to feel like part of a community, for your teachers to know them well, have fun and adventures and play, and secondary is the age for really pushing on academically.

I appreciate the honesty though, and though it might feel like I'm looking for more positives for the smaller school, I'm absolutely open to picking the larger one.

Question for you then, if I may.

What do you consider optimal re form numbers for primary. Let's say for years 4, 5, 6.

One form (currently available to us)
Two or three form (local school like this, but currently full)
Four form (available to us)
Six form (available, but a long long commute so I've ruled it out, but say it was closer, is 180 kids per year ok or too many?)

Thanks!

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 19:20

WaitingfortheTardis · 27/04/2023 19:05

Having experienced a variety of both types of schools I would always go for the smaller. Of course it is only personal experience, but I've found them to be far more nurturing than larger ones in general. I think one form entry is best, but actually think two form entry max is big enough for any primary as I feel that more than that can be very overwhelming for young children.

I think I keep coming back to the nurturing aspect, which would suit my littlest, rather than a bigger school where they may feel a bit overwhelmed, but I wonder if 4-forms can also be nurturing.

In what ways are a 1form school more nurturing than a 4form?

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 19:23

saffy56 · 27/04/2023 19:16

My sister lived in London and her kids went to a huge multicultural school with a substantial amount of PP children and also a good number of children from wealthy families. She loved the school but not London for bringing up children so they moved to a more rural location. The kids are now in a 1 form entry outstanding school with no children from ethnic minorities and very few PP children. This school on paper is amazing and has its own forest school attached and every child is well behaved. She chose the school because of its cute quaint rural location but she feels it isn't setting them up for real life as they will have to to go to a big secondary in the main town where they will come across children from different backgrounds and she feels that this quaint white middle class school is going to hinder them. So much so she is in 2 minds whether to move them to a bigger school in not such a nice area that has more opportunities than this school but has children from all walks of life.

What is PP?

We are in a multicultural area, of mixed financial backgrounds. I think my choices of primary leading to secondary in this aspect aren't an issue, but thank you for the points. I kinda feel it's ok for primary to be less like real life than real life, which they'll have plenty of time for once older.

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Riverlee · 27/04/2023 19:29

One form entry is fairly standard around here. I would consider a small school to have mixed age groups in each class.

Have you looked around each school? What feels right for your dc?

NCTDN · 27/04/2023 19:29

I really don't know regarding optimal numbers tbh. I admit that my children went to a one form entry primary school because I loved the vibe. But that was now 7 years ago and funding has decreased hugely in that time, so not sure that would be my choice now.
In some ways you're very lucky to get a choice. Round here, a 3 form entry is very novel- there's only two I know of out of 4 authorities. I've never heard of a 6 form primary school!
PP is pupil premium funding. It makes a massive difference and that's where my school struggles as we have very few children who qualify- it's things like free school meals etc.

Newuser82 · 27/04/2023 19:33

My son went to a single form entry school, had an absolutely horrible time with bullying and friendships. Moved to a three form entry school and I was worried because I didn't think they would know him as well and he would get lost in the crowds.

It's been the complete opposite. He has a great group of friends, the teachers all know him as well as the old school if not better and they also all know his little brother. Including the head teacher who comes out every day and makes a point of talking to all the parents. He knew when my son had hurt himself at home. He knew when my little one first started at nursery and what he had done on his first day. Honestly I was surprised.

aSpanielintheworks · 27/04/2023 19:50

How big is the Secondary?
I live in an area with one of the biggest secondaries in the County.
My DC's went to the biggest primary in our town (3 form entry/ 630 kids on roll)

The transition from big primary to big secondary was seamless, whereas I know friends who have really struggled coming from a nearby one form entry school to a huge secondary.
Might influence your decision.

Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 19:53

Riverlee · 27/04/2023 19:29

One form entry is fairly standard around here. I would consider a small school to have mixed age groups in each class.

Have you looked around each school? What feels right for your dc?

Yes. Have looked. Youngest liked the smaller school. Eldest indifferent. I think I liked the smallest too, but I think we might have liked the larger one had the person showing us around been as nice as the Head from the smaller school. I really can't tell how much we'd have liked it if it weren't for her attitude and rushing us around.

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mafsfan · 27/04/2023 19:57

I teach in a one form entry school. It's not a tiny a school by a long stretch (we're the biggest school in our locality!) but it's obviously different to a school with 2 or more classes per year group.

An intake of 22-25 will be concerning for the school, whether or not parents are aware of that! They need to be trying to maintain at least 180 pupils to continue to operate with 7 classes. Below 180 and there could be pressure to close one class (30 x 6 = 180 so you'd only need 6 teachers) in order to save money.

Workload for the teachers in a one form entry is brutal, as has been previously mentioned. That again may not be known by the parents.

One form entry allows the teacher much more flexibility in what and when they deliver the curriculum. Multi form entry schools tend to be very prescriptive on what is taught and when these days in order to ensure that each class within a year group is identical.

Multi form entry schools can be very nurturing. It will be different to a one form entry but you are likely to have a year group leader who takes on the role as the pastoral lead for that year group and the teachers will work closely together. These staff will know your child very well. The head and deputy are unlikely to unless they have a lot of dealings with your child!

Pros and cons to both!

Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 19:58

NCTDN · 27/04/2023 19:29

I really don't know regarding optimal numbers tbh. I admit that my children went to a one form entry primary school because I loved the vibe. But that was now 7 years ago and funding has decreased hugely in that time, so not sure that would be my choice now.
In some ways you're very lucky to get a choice. Round here, a 3 form entry is very novel- there's only two I know of out of 4 authorities. I've never heard of a 6 form primary school!
PP is pupil premium funding. It makes a massive difference and that's where my school struggles as we have very few children who qualify- it's things like free school meals etc.

Yes, I'm feeling the 'vibe', but like I've said, the Head was especially fab. The vibe might have been just as nice at the larger school had we been shown round by someone keen to have us!

We did check out the 6form entry one. Actually really liked it, staff were absolutely wonderful, met several.

Thanks re PP info. I'm not sure understand your reference to the school struggling because so few qualify for it.

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 19:59

Newuser82 · 27/04/2023 19:33

My son went to a single form entry school, had an absolutely horrible time with bullying and friendships. Moved to a three form entry school and I was worried because I didn't think they would know him as well and he would get lost in the crowds.

It's been the complete opposite. He has a great group of friends, the teachers all know him as well as the old school if not better and they also all know his little brother. Including the head teacher who comes out every day and makes a point of talking to all the parents. He knew when my son had hurt himself at home. He knew when my little one first started at nursery and what he had done on his first day. Honestly I was surprised.

This is good to know, thank you.
I'm glad he's doing much better now, and sorry he had that initial experience.

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Original poster
Stryke · 27/04/2023 20:00

aSpanielintheworks · 27/04/2023 19:50

How big is the Secondary?
I live in an area with one of the biggest secondaries in the County.
My DC's went to the biggest primary in our town (3 form entry/ 630 kids on roll)

The transition from big primary to big secondary was seamless, whereas I know friends who have really struggled coming from a nearby one form entry school to a huge secondary.
Might influence your decision.

It's eight forms! So massive, imo! How many forms in yours?

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