How small is too small a school?

[Swansandcygnets]

Probably the best option for us is a small church primary school that is tiny - reception, years 1 and 2 are taught together, then years 3 and 4 and then 5 and 6.

It seems a lovely school but I’m just concerned that such a small setting could mean difficulties with friendships and social groups. The other problem is that the feeder secondary school is enormous - one of the biggest in the whole country! It might be a bit of a culture shock when the time comes!

Any thoughts about this?

My dd's went to a small primary, 5
Classes for Reception to yr 6, all mixed year groups.

Good atmosphere, friendly with a good community feeling.

The children got to mix with the different age groups more than a bigger school. I think that is a positive.

I found ,when my Dc were at a 90 entry school, that there was still a strong community feel. And the school was just infants. Community feel isn’t just the preserve of small schools. It really depends on the ethos of the school and SLT. Schools are also expected to be part of their community in a meaningful way. Our school was really good at this.

There are small schools that have years 3-6 as well as infants and they cannot offer a full range of activities. It’s impossible. DCs at bigger primary schools do competitive sport if they want, go to the school orchestra or choir and have music ensembles etc. So many activities do depend on numbers. I think small,
up to y3, works within a closer knit community but after that DC really can miss out on some desirable activities and it really can become claustrophobic.

My kids are at a school that sort of size and with the OP year groups mix. I was hesitant at first (mine would be in the same class with how their age gap is periodically) but actually it's worked pretty well for them. We moved from a 2 form entry school which was great at infant level but the linked juniors was fucking awful, huge bullying problem and almost destroyed DD2... she is much more secure in this smaller school where staff know her and her needs, and she's got quite a fan club among the younger kids who think she's amazing.

DD1 I was more concerned about in terms of socially moving to the smaller friendship pool but she's settled well and pretty much all of the year 6s are very close knit and really do get the VIP treatment being the oldest kids in the school!

Financially (I'm a governor) the school is in a much better shape than lots in the local area - it's a Church school but the nature of the premises limits any potential for expansion really - it's in a listed building and a very confined site so it's not as if they can whack on a new classroom here and there but there has to be the will from within the school to work around limitations in terms of things like sports team opportunities, lack of a school hall etc - so ours brings in lots of external sports providers so PE this term has been karate and cheerleading along with the usual netball/basketball/hockey type fodder to work around things - and at one point in the summer we had a mobile climbing wall on the school field! I think it can depend a bit on if you're a small school in isolation, or if you're in an area with lots of small schools in terms of that though - our LEA have always been very good at supporting things like PE among the small schools in the county (county has huge swathes of very rural areas so there are a lot of us). The mobile climbing wall had one major issue of getting the Head who is the biggest kid going to get off so the kids could have a go though!

The family feeling is a huge thing though - although I did have to have a word with DD1 that being in year 6 did not entitle her to "dibs" the new reception kids as her pet small person to look after!

The other issue we've had that's come to mind is secondary destinations - because of where we are geographically and the small cohort - we don't really have a standard "route" where you go to X primary > Y secondary... we sit on the junction of about 3 large secondaries and then there are a few outliers who go to other schools. Normal years you get 4-5 going to a school from the primary together - this year the demographics mean it's a freakishly big year group around the local area so it's more like 10 of them heading to one secondary, another 3 or so going to the other secondary and then some who didn't put second preferences down on admissions forms and have been sent to the arse end of nowhere! (This has happened a LOT around here this year).

One thing to bear in mind is the current OFSTED framework puts a lot of pressure on small schools. Every subject needs to have a "lead"- which is fine in a school with 12 or more class teachers. In a school with 4 or 5 class teachers, not so much, and it puts a lot of pressure on the teachers in terms of doing admin tasks which take away time from their actual teaching.

If the school itself is difficult to get to, it can also make recruiting TAs and support staff (and even teachers) hard. And the current funding models also don't suit very small schools either.

If the school roll is falling over time, I'd be concerned about the future, but if it's staying steady or growing, I wouldn't be so concerned about that. Realistically, schools where there's a demand won't usually be closed, especially as the other local primaries probably wouldn't be able to accommodate 100 new students joining all at once.

Does reception, year 1 and 2 all being in together mean numbers have been falling?

Since I NCd anyway, this is the school.

I am unsure if I misunderstood or not - reception may be on its own and then year 1 and 2, years 3 and 4 and 5 and 6, which is better.

Hi OP, my DS (6) goes to a much smaller school than that - it only has 2 classes, and a total roll of <40. Small schools are very common where we live (rural Scotland).

For us the pros are:

1. Incredibly nurturing and friendly environment. Genuinely feels like a family. DD is at a larger school (wouldn't have been right for DS) which is also very nurturing and friendly, but not quite in the same way. Of course this could just be DS' school, not an every small school thing. Every parent is on the PTA (obviously you don't have to actually do anything - but most choose to) and there are no parental cliques.
2. Friendships run across year groups - DS' close friends are in P2, P3 and P4. I think it's been really good for him observing and learning from the older ones. Equally the older kids are amazing with the younger ones
3. The teacher is a pro at setting work for different levels. Realistically you get a lot of different levels in every class of every school, but schools with multiple year groups in one class are more used to it
4. This is the really big one - because the school is so small, the kids get involved with everything in a way that doesn't quite happen at bigger schools. Eg the older class put on a show recently and every member of the class was involved in pretty much every aspect from costume design to script writing. They ran the school book fair, every P7 is in charge of a school committee, etc. There's no opting out or keeping a low profile!

Cons:

1. No wraparound care
2. Transfer to academy is going to be a shock to the system - but apparently they all cope well
3. Risk of closure - though this isn't such a big one for us as I think roll would have to fall below 20 and at the moment what we are seeing is a lot of the smaller rural schools growing as parents in towns/the nearby city are opting out of catchment to access it - as we did.
4. Way fewer clubs/extra curriculars - but the school and parents work really hard at providing these, and all this can be accessed outside of school anyway, albeit it's more of a pain!

Good luck with your decision, but I certainly wouldn't be put off by that school's size. By the way DH was opposed to DS' school before we visited it because of the size - once we had visited he changed his mind completely :)

@MovingMolly
Why is a family atmosphere desirable? I always see it quoted as a plus. I don’t see this. We didn’t seek it out (we could have done) because dd needed a broad range of friends her own age.

Everyone involved in pta sounds stressful. Do parents not have jobs? In all schools I know, you are automatically a pta member. It’s because your child goes to the school. If that’s the case at your school, that’s normal everywhere.

If your Dc have not been to a bigger school, I think you don’t know how the best ones work. All Dc are involved in end of year or Christmas drama/concert. If they wish to be. Ditto with running stalls at school fair. No opting out seems very dictatorial. So Dc join in or what? Ostracized? Made to feel bad? This would not be ideal for many.

@TizerorFizz You’ll see from my post that my DD does go to a large school so yes, I have experience of both. You seem very opposed to small schools which is fine. Each to their own. But in response to your questions

Re the family atmosphere, you didn’t want it… others do… what is hard to understand about that? What does it mean? That there’s a closeness between students and staff that has a different quality than in a large school. If a child has the same teacher for 3 years, potentially the same PSA for 7 years, they develop quite special relationships with them. It’s ok if you don’t want that. I happen to like it.

Both my school aged DC have as many close friends outside school as they do in school, which I also like, and I appreciate the fact that DS’ school friends are a range of ages. DD’s aren’t, because the year groups don’t mix in the same way.

PTA - of course parents have jobs. The meetings are fairly infrequent and in the evenings. Because there are only c.20 families, people want to get involved. And it’s refreshing that as many Dads are involved as Mums, which definitely hasn’t been my experience elsewhere.

DC join in because they want to join in. I’m not sure why you think anyone would be ostracised. That seems a bizarre leap. I’m also not sure why your post is so negative. I was just giving OP my experience of a small school v a bigger school (which if you’d read my post properly you would see I also have experience of…)

Our lovely school is 2 form entry but this year is oddly under subscribed, 18 in one form and 19 in the other in reception class and it's perfect. I went to a tiny village school like you describe - 2 very small year groups in a class of 25ish and I loved it!!

All the primary schools here are tiny, ranging from 48-100ish pupils 5-11. Most are mixed age classes. I think there’s a couple of slightly larger ones in town but they are still
small by urban school standards.

DD will be going to a school with less than 60 kids at the moment. It’s a rural area. The average intake in reception is 8 although they have been allowed to increase the PAN to 15 as they’d like to grow the school slightly.

All of the schools are Good or Outstanding and in the same learning trust and there’s no other choice anyway! The secondary’s aren’t enormous but are considerably bigger (700-900 pupils).

The small classes are lovely and the younger ones learn from them older ones too. All have full wraparound care and they do
some sports with other schools to boost the teams. No risk of closure here.

We moved here partly for the schools as there’s not a bad school in the county. But it is a tiny county!

I went to a school like this and it was lovely. I do want a larger school for my boys though. I don't know how the teachers managed! My brother, almost 2 years younger than me, was in my class!

If a child doesn’t gel with a teacher in a small school you can be stuck with them for years! Not great if the teacher is poor either.

As for dads helping with pta! So that really makes for a great education. Dads do help in bigger schools too! Its not something I would look at when choosing a school. It does give the impression that you have to be “one of us” to enjoy the small school ethos. Larger schools do allow parents more choice. Not helping at all seems taboo in small schools. The dads in ours who worked as surgeons or doctors or lawyers weren’t seen much.

The dads in ours who worked as surgeons or doctors or lawyers weren’t seen much.

Ok, well they are in ours. I didn’t say that Dads being on the PTA made for a better education - what a strange thing to take from my post. I said I appreciated seeing more diversity in the parents involved in organising events, partly because I don’t like my kids to think that Mums are the ones responsible for that!

Again, I really don’t know why you’re being so negative about this. I’m not being negative about large schools - obviously, both large and small schools have their pros and cons and obviously, the best setting for one child isn’t necessarily the best setting for another child. But the OP is considering a small school and has asked for other parents’ experiences. Which you don’t seem to have, so I’m not sure why you’re even commenting, let alone getting so uptight about it all.

Sorry she asked for thoughts, not personal experience. My mistake.

Most people, when looking for a school, look at education. Not the role of dads. It’s my view that this is on the margins of thoughts. I think the “everyone involved”model does pressurise parents. It’s a firm of parental club. My DH could be a role model in other ways. Strong work ethic and showing our DDs they could succeed by supporting their choices. We didn’t see pta as being very important for him. Although he had a role in the Friends at secondary school. Being available to help with the library wasn’t a strength!

Im not that bothers really. But a vejwbces view is needed.

My dc attend a small village school.

Reception and year 1
year 2 and year 3
year 4 and year 5

and then year 6 have their own classroom.

It’s been going for decades even after the latest scandal (headteacher was found to be a peadophile. New headteacher and new branding was quickly sorted).

It’s a really nice little school and I’m so glad my children have the opportunity to attend it