How small is too small a school?

[Swansandcygnets]

Probably the best option for us is a small church primary school that is tiny - reception, years 1 and 2 are taught together, then years 3 and 4 and then 5 and 6.

It seems a lovely school but I’m just concerned that such a small setting could mean difficulties with friendships and social groups. The other problem is that the feeder secondary school is enormous - one of the biggest in the whole country! It might be a bit of a culture shock when the time comes!

Any thoughts about this?

I went to a school like this and it would be a hard no from me. If there are friendship issues then the child has very few options for alternatives. I was bullied and it was a nightmare.

My DC are in a massive primary and are very happy.

The real test for a small school is whether the year 5/6s are happy, and achieving their best. Lower down, small, cosy classes can be perfect. It's year 4 plus where being in a mixed class, with few friendship options, fewer extracurricular activities, become an issue. So those saying "my reception child loves it!" well, yes. I think more reception age will thrive than upper juniors.

Perhaps the reason so many of these small schools close is because so many parents presume small schools aren't good choices and choose the larger schools, so numbers just keep declining.

It's a bit sad really, because some of these small village schools are absolute gems.
Many of the issues stated in this thread aren't issues for all children, I daresay most.

You need to go and get a feel for it yourself, rather than ask on Mumsnet.

Considering a huge amount of schools have mixed year classes and achieve good results it obviously does work successfully.
It takes very skilled teachers IME. You won't last long teaching a mixed year class if you're not decent.

For this reason, small village schools with good or better Ofsted ratings have some impressive things going on. Especially considering teachers are also having to deal with multiple subject leadership roles and stretched funds.

It takes a skilled teacher to manage a wide variation in age and ability. Unfortunately, there's a crisis, and skilled teachers are rare.

If you've got the holy grail of a small school, with great funding, unlikely to close, experienced, skilled teachers, wraparound, extracurriculars, and no friendship issues, then that's great!

If you've got a school staffed by a rotating door of NQTs, or retirement-adjacent burned out teachers, with small school facilities, then less great.

Most schools have recruitment problems, most experienced, good teachers are leaving. So we have far more mixed classes being managed by a baptism-of-fire NQT. Which isn't fair on anyone.

I visited a few school's with mixed year groups and they came across as chaotic - from my experience the range in abilities in just one class or year is hard enough to ensure the individual is seen and grown to their best ability, so to do that with multiple years just dilutes it further. These were both state and private.

There are definitely very skilled teachers in these roles and schools that are Ofsted outstanding, but as you say they are wearing many hats and juggling many balls - and my choice would not to choose a school with this structure.

I dont recognise any of the negativity on here. Outstanding small village school 90ish pupils , amazing head and staff .To many clubs ,,school trips and amazing experiances and opportunities to name . Excellent holstic approach to supporting pupils and familys .My children are at the A level stage now with life long friendships, skills , ambitions and sports that started in primary school.
Good luck with your search

I'm a primary governor and we have just fought tooth and nail to stop the school moving from a four class structure to three... I would be worried about school survival, as it's very hard to go back up to more classes, which is undoubtedly the best thing for the children. Costs are still going through the roof so there won't be money for an extra teacher. I'd be wary and I rarely say that.

@Mocara Your children are at the a level stage? So you have fond memories of five years ago, pre covid?

Schools have changed. Teachers have left. It's all gone to shit generally, and it's worse in small schools, often.

Just be aware that a small but high quality secondary will probably not be able to offer a wide choice of subjects to study at GCSE and beyond. Though to be fair this is an increasing problem in larger schools too sine they cant find staff.

The financial sums don’t add up in a school as you describe. The income brought in by each child in a class of 9 would barely cover the salary of an experienced teacher, let alone TAs, non teaching staff, building running costs, disposable materials etc. if I was a local authority in an area with many such schools I would be looking at amalgamations at best, closures at worst, as a model a very small school is not sustainable.

If you’re in a nice area then it’s probably ok. But otherwise beware of any kids that might be there because of their behaviour. (Parents assuming they’ll get special treatment) because it can be exceptionally detrimental to other kids as mine found out.

Mine went to a small school (100 in the whole school) and there were several disruptive kids in each year group. My eldest two were in classes of just 10 or less and there were a couple of kids in those years who disturbed everything frequently. The school would have to deal with it by removing the whole class from the classroom every time the children kicked off. It was so bad that the school was in the papers several times! There were also issues with bullying and bitchiness that larger schools still have but it’s intensified with smaller numbers.

Several parents removed their kids and went to an even smaller local school (total of about 10) One of the difficult kids was kicked out and then followed suit which caused a massive problem for the entire school.

My youngest, however, ended up with a brilliant year group with a really sweet bunch of kids. It was a large full year of about 25. (The only thing that happened to disturb him in the end was covid!!)

State primary school experience was so awful we decided to send them to private secondary which is very large. (The local state secondary and the one in the next town are notoriously awful, one is in the bottom 5 of the country’s league table!). None of them had issues transitioning to a big school!

A few things
I am in lreland so things may be different but if a small school closes, which very rarely happens, the Department of Education will already have a plan as to where the children will go. So it's not like the school will close and your child will be sent home with nowhere to go.
Also for those saying they can't see how mixed classes can be a success half of lreland is taught in mixed classes and it works fine. You can have a poor teacher in any kind of school but a regular teacher will manage fine with mixed. I attended that kind of school as did my dc. It meant l could be stretched up with the older class which l loved as a challenge. But if a child was struggling a bit it meant they could get to hear some aspects twice and get a better opportunity to grasp it.

100 children is fine. It all depends on the atmosphere in the school, the skills of the Principal and that everyone is enthusiastic and engaged. That applies to any school. Throughout my 40 years teaching experience l have taught in all types and it's the staff who make a difference not the number.
Proximity to home and making local friends and becoming part of the local community can be an important part of a child's life too.

@Swansandcygnets
Few schools can manage financially with small classes. As mentioned above, the sums do not add up. The Governors and Head are responsible for the budget and schools cannot set deficit budgets. They should reduce staff if they don’t have viable class sizes. So beware very small schools that are operating way below the optimum 30 in a class. 25 per year is small enough. I don’t like smaller schools for ks2 because drama, music and sport are all compromised for these children. They don’t get to fly at these subjects.

As described above, village schools with space can be havens for disruptive Dc. Parents seek them out and SEN DC can be say above average.

LAs cannot close schools these days. Many are mats and it’s Governors who see they are not viable. Schools are often very slow to look at alternatives such as federation. One village school is the infants and the neighbouring one the junior. Then market hard! Often small school sats are great (ofsted like this) but other areas of development for Dc can be lacking, eg range of possible friends. What’s great in YE can be narrow m, limiting and cliquey in y5/6.

Quite a few infant village schools around me feed into larger juniors. CofE have wanted to expand their infants into 4-11 primary schools but they remain small. Quite a few parents want the bigger primaries. For good reason. Team teaching helps too.

My DC go to a small school (sub 50 pupils) & it's wonderful. We are part of a Federation which helps & finances do not appear to be an issue.
Definitely view the school OP, with an open mind & lots of questions.

DS went to a primary with less than a hundred kids to a secondary with over 1500 children. If the schools are good then it will work.

My only concern would be the mix of reception, Yr1 and Yr 2. Ds's school didn't have this and I think it's far from ideal as Yr 2's will be doing extremely different work from reception children. Reception are playing and learning phonics while Yr 2's have SAT's. For me that wide a mix really doesn't work, you just can't differentiate the work - and the TA may spend a lot of the day teaching a particular year group which I don't think is right (although some TA's are brilliant at it).

I attended a school like this. I was the only girl in my year group. It didn't work well for me. I felt I was quickly labelled and it was hard to shake that label off in such a small school. However, that was in the 80s and I think there is more awareness generally of psychological needs now. I don't remember the transition to a large secondary being particularly difficult. I requested not to be in a class with the boys from my school!

I think it really depends on the individual school. My 2 DC went to a school with approx 40 pupils, and one infant and one junior class. When they started it was fantastic, the head was amazing and it literally felt like a happy family. The head changed, along with one of the two teachers and it literally became like a different school, and they were pleased to leave.
With regard to going to a big secondary, they have both gone to the biggest secondary in the city (approx 2000) with no issues whatsoever.

Depends on your kid! One that is easy going, compliant, fits in will adapt to his peers and develop friendships. One that is shy or a bit awkward might find it difficult to find like minded kids to be friends with.

Interesting reading!
I've got the same dilemma for DS3...
School A. 120 ish kids total, big mixed age classes apart from y6. DS1 and 2 went there as was village school, DS2 was let down a lot (sen) they churn out good SATs but feels soulless. Ofsted last year said standards slipping from Good so section 5 inspection next. DS3 is currently at attached nursery which is fab.

School B. Equidistant to school A now we've moved (drive either way) is tiny approx 30 kids total! We're going to look on Tuesday but the website and my phone call with head gave such a good vibe, forest school every week for all, sensory room, external music and pe teachers, lots of visitors etc. One day a week they join with a similar sized school. Ofsted good. On paper it is perfect but the friends thing is a concern!

DS is shy/easily overwhelmed and end of July born which makes me sway towards School B where the teachers really know the kids but everyone he's grown up with will go to School A

I'm hoping I'll be able to make a decision post visit!!

It's a minefield!

LAs can close some schools and do
governors in school within a MAT have no decision making in this
many small school are C of E and the diocese has a role which varies according to status

mass academisation means that more and more small schools will close. They are currently supported by larger schools through the schools forum but as more become academies that option becomes unviable

how well a school is managed makes no tangible difference. Costs versus income

A GB can propose to close its own school. Schools with too few pupils are, by definition, not well managed. They are almost certainly too expensive and cannot run within their budget. Small schools do not necessarily deliver well to Dc. They could federate but often governors don’t do this. Loads of primary schools are not academies but the CofE is a big one. They never close anything!

@Onemoremakesthree 30 Dc from yr to y6??? Hopefully not. Sport must be awful. A visiting teacher won’t make much difference. Lots of schools get this and specialist input. Plus nearly everything else needing numbers will be average. As Dc move up in a school they grow up. Dd was August birthday. They are not babies forever. I suspect forest school wouldn’t have interested her at all. She wanted to read and getting mucky wasn’t her thing.

CE closures too.

www.northyorks.gov.uk/proposal-cease-maintain-school-hovingham-church-england-voluntary-controlled-primary-school

I went from a 4 form in total primary school to an 8 form per year secondary and the transition was totally fine.

That said, I don’t think I was sufficiently stretched in the later years of primary school because that’s where the mixed year groups were and it felt like they were teaching to the younger level. There were also very few girls my age in my school and that did lead to a few friendship issues because it was all a bit intense with such a small number of people. For these reasons I didn’t consider anything smaller than one form per year for DD. This was a long time ago though, I’m sure schools do a better job of it now.