How would you expect the school to handle this?

[Rainbowpetal]

Child in DC’s class (age 5) has some additional needs that are not yet diagnosed and so there’s no funding in place.

This is leading them to hurt other children in the class on a daily basis. This can be anything from hitting, scratching, kicking, hair pulling, throwing toys at them, hitting them with toys. The teacher always speaks to the parents of the children that have been hurt and then the child’s mother who’s done the hurting.

I am in no way saying this is the teacher’s fault, I know it is not at all. You can see how stressed she is by it all and trying to support all of the class.

My question is, what should the school be doing to safeguard our children? I’ve known children in other schools to have 1:1 support but this child does not.

The head has said there is a risk assessment in place (not stopping anyone getting hurt!) and the child is being supported in every way that they can be in the classroom by the teacher and support staff.

This clearly isn’t enough for this child but if the head isn’t willing to pay for support, what can be done?

Schools also have a duty to their staff. Often this is forgotten about. If they don’t they can make working intolerable and this is constructive dismissal. Of course what is needed are more special schools or nurture groups. We used to have brilliant ones. The money has all gone to the schools plus my TA budget for helping schools prior to a “statement”. Schools wanted autonomy. They all have budget responsibility but don’t always spend wisely. They also need to plan for these types of children. Who plans anything these days?

Do you have any visibility of school budget these days? TAs are working across multiple classes as there is NO money. Budgets are cut to the bone.

The child's nursery could very well have noticed things and started the process for an EHCP, however the waiting lists for these is massive.
CAHMS waiting lists are huge & so many children are being let down right now by a system that just isn't working.

I think they can start the process immediately at 3. So by YR the child has one. It’s a case of being proactive and parents agreeing. Nurseries can also refuse to have children. They are not statutory schooling. A EHCP means a nursery is named. It is a huge advantage if the process is started. I’m not sure if Social Services get involved with promoting Dc for Ehcps these days. They used to.

Im aware some schools struggle for money but we never had a TA in all classes when I was a governor. Targeted TAs yes. Budgets have always been an issue. Our la has always been near the bottom of the £ per pupil stats!

Many schools struggle with unforeseen costs. Supply costs and send costs being the main ones. However liaison with nurseries should flag up some concerning Dc. We always had Dc not attending nurseries though and this is where the big problems arise. They can arrive in school and no one knows about their issues.

Some schools are better at coping than others. Some parents are more tolerant than others. It tended to be a village school issue where they struggled with children and parents the most. Sweet little schools really don’t like Dc with behavioural problems. Parents want a certain type of child to be at the school. Town parents are more tolerant. However the needs of Dc are the same but the ability of the schools to cope isn’t.

ECHPs are essentially being rationed by councils which don’t have enough money. They cost schools significant amounts of money to get and 90% of schools will run out of money this year.

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiEw7zS1JT9AhUOV8AKHb1EBy0QFnoECBgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Feducation%2F2022%2Foct%2F22%2Fexclusive-90-of-uk-schools-will-go-bust-next-year-heads-warn&usg=AOvVaw1xiY0otvBed2DEZNPu8Esg

There are not waiting lists for EHCPs. Unless parents have to appeal, which I appreciate many do, the timescale for EHCPs is 20 weeks from first EHCNA request to finalised EHCP (if issued).

You don’t have to wait until the child is 3 to apply either.

Nurseries can exclude a child, but they have to comply with the Equality Act and in some nurseries the rules on exclusions are same as exclusion from CSA schooling in a state school.

@TizerorFizz I have been involved with school budgets for a decade and they really are the worst I have seen them. I totally agree some schools are better at dealing with things but the money is nothing like 10 years aho when everything cost less too.

I also think the ehcp deadlinis irrelevant because the LA issue crap on the deadline so you get to add the appeal timescales to the original.

What are the local authority doing to support the school in meeting the needs of the child with ASN.

Its only parent power that helps head teachers get the meetings authorised for assessment and for anything to change.

And there are some spectacularly sh*t nurseries that don't recognise or avoid dealing with potential EHCP children as they want to scrape by on minimum staffing to maximise revenue (yes, I'm looking at you local nursery that is often late with pupils as they don't have staffing to walk pupils to school).

Schools are in an impossible position with this. It is exceptionally difficult to exclude a child, especially if they have additional needs. If there is no funding in place there is no money to get 1-1 support. We have tried part-time timetables but the DfE say that's not acceptable (without coming up with any solutions for how to manage these situations). No, it's not right and as a parent I would be very annoyed if my child was being hurt but it needs a systemic change. There need to be more specialist units and earlier identification of children who won't cope in a mainstream setting.

I would expect the school to a) be putting some additional support into the classroom out of the delegated funding they receive for each child, b) working with the child and their parents to address the trigger issues (sensory overload? Consider a quiet space. Worse when hungry? Consider an early snack. Worse at drop off? Consider an early/late drop) etc, whilst also c) gathering evidence to submit to the LA for top up funding or specialist support - whatever is available in your area.

And I would also expect the behaviour policy to be followed, for the safety of all.

Having in the past been a school governor, I'm well aware that some schools have a constant battle with their local authority to get funding.
Meanwhile staff are stretched ridiculously and despite having procedures in places, they sail close to the wind regarding safeguarding because they cannot afford the resources necessary.

This clearly isn’t enough for this child but if the head isn’t willing to pay for support, what can be done?

Hasn't got the money to fund it is a much more likely scenario m. Have you seen the funding situation in our schools these days?

Trust me the whole situation is a disaster for everyone. No money. The teacher could quite possibly be carrying around their resignation letter...if they go you won't find another most likely. The system is a wasteland of rubble.

It SHOULD be 20 weeks, however over 50% of ECHPs are taking significantly longer, some up to 5 years.

www.nasen.org.uk/news/investigation-bbc-shows-families-waiting-too-long-ehc-plans

I work in a SEN school, I've seen the failings of the system and the length of time these take. It's ridiculous.
That poor child is going through hell in a setting that isn't equipped for them, the other children in class are being put at a disadvantage and the staff are probably stressed beyond belief trying to support everyone.
The last thing they need is a bunch of parents shouting about how bad it is. They already know!

Parents can force LAs to comply with the statutory timescales, via judicial review if necessary. They don’t need to accept LAs acting unlawfully.

SEN money is delegated to schools. What don’t posters understand about this. It’s been this way since 1992. They are given the money. LAs are not permitted to
keep pots of money for Energency help for schools. 30 plus years ago we did. I explained earlier what we had. No LA has this now as the money goes to schools.

Of course that meant all the extra provision closed. Schools spent their own money and didn’t want nurture units, peripatetic SEN staff, TA money allocated by the LA. Ask the Heads where their SEN money goes. Ask them why they don’t have nurture units. Of course it’s farcical not to provide extra support but LAs do not have the money. It’s delegated to schools. After a EHCP it’s different.

@JustKeepBuilding
We had pupils picked up by SS with statements at 2. However many dc are not in a nursery until 3. Then they get noticed. However they can be removed from a nursery so nothing happens.

Of course school budgets are stretched and choices have to be made. I could take you to schools with dire budgets 30 years ago. What schools are poor at is federating, working together and pooling budgets. There are mechanisms that need to be explored but few do.

DC don’t need to be in nursery to receive an EHCP.

LAs do have early years inclusion funding and high needs top up funding (depending on age). LAs won’t provide it unless forced, but it does exist.

Thank goodness for some rational thought on this thread.

The school should be well aware that a diagnosis is not necessary for an EHC Needs Assessment leading, if appropriate, to an EHCP being issued which would carry funding for the support required. They should have started this process in the autumn term - in fact it should have been started much earlier in nursery if the child in question attended one.

If High Needs funding is available in your area, they should have applied for that also. It is not true to suggest as indicated above that that takes a very long time: the whole point is that it is much quicker than the EHCP proc

This. Meeting EHCP assessment deadlines is a duty in law and the exceptions are extremely limited. An LA is not even going to risk a judicial review getting off the ground, because they know they cannot win and will have to pay both sides' costs. SOS SEN say that in that sort of case they have a 100% success rate with pre-action letters that resolve the issue within a couple of weeks.

That's why and EHC needs assessment application needs to go in ASAP. Contrary to what some schools and local authorities say, LAs have to fund provision in EHCPs although they are entitled to expect schools to apply at least some of the delegated SEN funding for that purpose.

Often you don’t even need a pre-action letter and a well worded email to the Director of Children’s Services threatening JR works. Even the very limited exceptions don’t excuse it taking anywhere near 5 years.

The child's nursery could very well have noticed things and started the process for an EHCP, however the waiting lists for these is massive.

There is no waiting list for EHCPs. Once a request is entered, the statutory deadlines are set and, if it is decided the child needs an EHCP, it must be finalised within 20 weeks of the date they received the request. The only exceptions are when the LA needs information from the school over a period when it is closed for more than 4 weeks, if the child and family are away for more than 4 weeks over the assessment period, or exceptional circumstances affecting the child and family, e.g. illness. Also if the LA initially refuses to assess or to issue an EHCP but subsequently changes its mind or loses a tribunal appeal, the clock stops when they made the decision but starts again when a decision/order to assess or issue is made.

Very true.

sossen.org.uk/whats-judicial-review/
sossen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Judicial-Review-SOSSEN-.pdf