Move to independent school at year 3 - am I doing the right thing?

[munchymoo]

DS is at an outstanding state primary, year 2, he's settled and doing well. DH and I were both entirely state educated and have done well with our respective careers. We live in north London so are considering Highgate, UCS, Habs, City amongst others.

We had always planned to switch to private for secondary as the local state secondaries are not great, but now we've decided to move DS next year into Year 3 (so he'll be sitting the 7+ exam soon).

The reasons for this are twofold. Firstly we live in a very competitive area for private schools and it seems that statistically he is more likely to get a place at 7+ compared to 11+ (our first choice is Highgate and the stats are something like 300 applicants for 100 places at 7+ and 900 applicants for 100 places at 11+), my fear is if we keep him at state and then he doesn't pass the 11+, we don't really have an option other than to send him to the local state comp (moving house isn't really an option for us).

The other reason for switching now is that he is a bright boy, he picks things up quickly and his maths is at least 1 year ahead of the current work they're doing in class, especially since doing the 7+ prep work. He comes home every day with sheets of colouring and when I asked his teacher why that is he said it's because he finishes his work quickly and it's to keep him occupied whilst he helps some of the children who are struggling. He said he would try and get some extension work set up but we've not seen this yet. Whilst I completely appreciate that there are a range of abilities and it is really tough for the teacher to manage 30 children, I also want to do the best for my son and allow him to achieve his potential.

DH is 100% pro moving him and says why wouldn't we if we can afford it? I oscillate between thinking the same, and then thinking he's at an outstanding school, he's happy, we have local friends and a great sense of community and I don't want him to grow up in a bubble, I value the fact that he is currently mixing with a wide range of children of different backgrounds and I am concerned that sending him to private school will quash that.

There is no right answer, and I realise opinions will be divided. Please could I ask for any opinions or anyone else in the same boat? For those who went private, do you feel it was the right choice? Am I mad paying for private education when my son is at an OFSTED outstanding state primary? I realise this is a fortunate position to be in. I'm really struggling, please be kind!

I agree with this

Keep him where he is. He’s happy, he’s mixing well. He’ll do well wherever he goes.

Honestly, I went to bog standard state primary and secondary schools and have a highly successful career. I am proud to have achieved what I have through sheer hard work and determination. If someone is going to be successful, imo they're best doing it on their own without being spoon-fed. Also, mixing with all walks of life is not something that can be taught, and is what makes a well-rounded individual.

@BlackthornBerry UCL has done this research. There is still a value-add in A-level grades for the private sector but its not the difference between being a success and a failure in life.

The thing is, people who can afford private but don't pay typically:

1. Send their children to some form of selective state school
2. Live in the (tiny and expensive) catchment of a top performing comp

This is just using wealth in another way to access better education which is then often topped up with co-curricular activities and tutoring to better approximate what the private sector offers.

While circa 70% of Oxbridge students are from state schools, the majority of those students come from only 300 schools which are grammar / selective schools or the top performing state schools in the country.

Unfortunately socioeconomic background is the biggest factor for social mobility.

I never understood comparing state and private it’s apples and pears. The mixed comp takes everyone - general population - so no shit their results aren’t as stellar! The private self selects from families that can afford the fees.We earn well but with no family money our lifestyles would take a big hit so on balance we don’t think it’s worth it for us.

Where are you, that Highgate is convenient but local comp is ‘dire’?? I think that’s a story. They aren’t dire at all around Highgate.

also, you will lose the primary friends, IME.

Private schools in N London are a whole different world to state schools. It’s not just your child’s life that will change but yours too. You won’t live ‘local’ any more. It’s a huge huge change - and given how good the schools are, I can see all the losses from moving, but the gains don’t seem so big to me…

I have also encountered demonisation of state school to justify the outlay which is pretty annoying especially when usually utterly ill informed. I was once grandly assured “they don’t do sports at state school”. Most of our work acquaintances were privately educated and they assumed Dh and I were too so we heard it all!

Pls share research links if you have any. Find this topic very interesting. You make some very good points about using wealth in a different way.

Sounds a good plan considering the secondary school situation in your area.

@LondonGirl83 I would be really interested to read more about this research that you mention, especially about the majority of the state oxbridge places going to pupils from a tiny minority of selective and otherwise privileged state schools. Haven't been able to locate more details with googling. Do you have any links to articles or researcher names?

The most influential on me was the work of the Sutton Trust over the last 10 years around attainment: www.suttontrust.com/our-research/

There is VERY public data for this for example:
www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students (covers state share in chort)

All senior independent schools publish their leavers destinations in their annual reports for their charities.

State bodies also show employment rates.

Move him. You can’t fix the broken system, and you should give your child the best education you’re able to access. Moving at age 11 is much harder because he’d be so educationally far behind the children who have been to prep schools.

State schools claim (and are legally obliged) to give appropriate work to each child, but they are so so broken and under resourced now, they are simply unable to teach the bright kids anything at all when the struggling kids need them so much more.

@elij that's a totally different data set to what @LondonGirl83 was talking about, and doesn't have any breakdown that splits off selective state schools ans state schools in economically advantaged areas from more normal state schools, which is what I was interested in.

Just to also reply to this question. If you’re only thinking about university destinations then there’s no point in moving him, he can end up at oxbridge or Harvard or wherever whether he went to private school or state school. University admissions teams are now very good at adjusting for the benefits of private education, and selecting the best overall candidates whether they came from state or private schools.

The point of private school is not to get into a particular university. The point is to learn lots of stuff and have a great time doing it. I loathed every day at my crappy state school. My maths and French are rubbish and I had to teach myself history and geography as an adult.

My DC adore their independent school and are enjoying their childhood (while learning loads). They also actually get attention from the teacher as his time isn’t dominated by problem children. That’s what I’m paying for.

@FaazoHuyzeoSix is the Sutton Trust collated research that I cited not helpful? for example www.suttontrust.com/our-research/universities-and-social-mobility/

"Moving at age 11 is much harder because he’d be so educationally far behind the children who have been to prep schools"

Isn't that the point of the 11+ though? Surely

It’s definitely what prep schools tell you. IME, with a good state school and parental support, a successful 11+ to selective independents is entirely doable. And possibly less stressful, in some ways.

@FaazoHuyzeoSix there are a few different places. I'll send additional links about the various things I've mentioned but here is a quick one (relevant extract below)

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/10/britains-best-universities-are-dominated-by-private-schools-could-i-help-level-the-playing-field

Admissions data obtained by the Guardian from Oxford and Cambridge under freedom of information laws illustrates this clearly. Both universities made about half of their undergraduate offers to state school students in the past few years, with the remainder split roughly evenly between private school and overseas applicants. But the vast majority of the state school offers – more than two-thirds – went to just 300 schools. These schools represent the highest-performing 10% of state schools in the country and are mostly grammar schools, highly selective sixth-form colleges or academies in wealthy areas. They average around five Cambridge offers a year, and four from Oxford, so have plenty of experience in getting the best students in.

Students from the remaining 90% of state schools – roughly 2,700 – get significantly fewer Oxbridge offers. On average, students from these schools, which include most regular comprehensives like Sackville, get an offer from Cambridge once every four years, and an offer from Oxford every five years. And before anyone dismisses this disparity on the grounds that these schools aren’t applying: the figures show that at least one student at most of this country’s schools and colleges applies to Oxford or Cambridge every year.

Also, here is the some data on the socio-economic advantage the wealthy have in gaining access to grammar schools which I think is already widely understood but just in case

www.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/news/2018/mar/children-wealthier-families-much-more-likely-secure-grammar-school-places

I don't have research on this but the the high value add scores (not just absolute results) that schools in affluent areas achieve aren't just based on better teaching. Lots of parents at these school tutor (in addition to other middle class enrichment activities) in my personal experience. Also, state schools in affluent areas have more financial resources from parents. My local state primary during covid was able to raise £25k from parents for a new computer lab via the PTA! Now, with the budget issues, again, parents are paying for school essentials via the PTA (like stationary!) so that the nice co-curricular opportunities can remain in place. Other schools in our borough during covid couldn't get laptops for remote learning for their pupils from the council much less raise money. The disparities within the state system are huge and not easy to address.

If you read to full article from my first post today, you'll see that the top state schools that regularly send students to Oxbridge can invest in Oxbridge coaching - my local top performing comp (top 2% in the country) has this and advertises it heavily to parents. They can afford to do this as they regularly send students there (which becomes self-fulling).

The would-be medics at my daughter's (private) school have one period a week for the whole lower sixth dedicated to getting into medicine. They all get in.

Its interesting what you say @LondonGirl83 about these elite state secondary schools dominated by middle class parents avoiding fees.

If you look at a London borough like Southwark 2019 A -Level table, JAGS is top with Average point score per entry at 48.66 ( where an A is worth 48 points) Alleyns 47.94 and Dulwich College 47.16 , so far so expected.

State school like somwhere like Harris Girls Academy East Dulwich gets 26.06 and that's an Ofsted rated Outstanding school.

the best performing state school in the borough is Charter School North Dulwich, another outstanding state school, their Average point score per entry is 42.04, a huge difference between the Harris school and within spitting distance to the likes of Dulwich College, minus the £22K+ a year fees

Guess which one middle class parents flock to?

This happens across London, private schools on top, middle classed dominated schools second , then everywhere else.

What the table also shows how small ( in real terms) the gap is between an elite school like St Pauls Girls ( 52.23) and Jags (48.66) and an suburban, out of the way place, like Sydenham High School GDST(46.45) or Croydon's Old Palace Whitgift (42.96) The difference in fees and prestige is huge between the elite two and 'non-elite' two, but top and bottom are seperated by a mere 5.78 points .

Compare that to the lowest performing schools in their respective boroughs -Hammersmith: (15.58) Southwark (11.39) Lewisham (16.32) Croydon (16.50)

For stats on other schools (only in London, )see below, although for 2019 , I can't imagine they've changed that much.

www.standard.co.uk/news/education/school-league-tables-gcse-a-level-results-london-a4356301.html

Don’t bother op. Mine are in prep. Huge waste of money!

oh! Pls tell us more ....