State vs independent

[cambs22]

We need to make a decision about where our DD will start her education, and have narrowed it down to either the local independent primary (only goes to 11) or the equally local state primary.

We have visited the independent and she is currently at pre-school there and is doing really well. She will have 20 in her year but they may lose up to 50% in year 3 as many parents treat the school as a pre-prep before a move to more competitive independent schools.

The local primary will have 60 in her year, is Ofsted outstanding (as of 2010, so who knows), and unfortunately we have been unable to visit due to Covid. But it is well regarded by most parents we speak to.

Ideally we would like DD to stay in one school until 11 when she will go to a prep/independent senior. DH was state educated and wants her to go to the local primary - he thinks she will be more rounded, have lots of local friends and an opportunity to play better sport at local clubs after school. I was privately educated and have taught in both and would prefer her to go to the independent as I think she will have more fun there (afternoons off-site in the forest each week, lots of trips, lots of sports on and off-site, no worries about SATS, rigid phonics and the expectations of the new curriculum that affects the state sector). Also, the size of the small independent means that it has been markedly less affected by Covid than the larger state primary in terms of staff and pupil absence.

Given our choice and our different beliefs, what would you do in our situation? Financially we are in a position to afford private education with no change to our lifestyle. But equally we could invest the money saved for our children for the future, so don't want to make the wrong decision, if there is a wrong decision.

What leaps out is that your tiny independent primary may collapse at any minute. 20 in the year is rather limited and limiting, although that might matter less in year 1. But by year 3 - by which time you say there could be only 14 or 15 in the year - the tiny population would surely impact options for friendship, orchestras, sport, etc.

Also, if all the highest achieving children are moving on to more competitive schools, what becomes of those left behind? What is staff morale like?

Also, did you actually mean what you said about moving her to a prep at 11? Do you think there’ll be many girls / co-ed independents starting at 13 by then? (Boys’ public schools will probably maintain their traditional structure.) I’d have said she’d be better off in a strong prep from maybe 8 years old.

Assuming you actually meant you’d only be moving her to a senior independent at 11 - how successful is the little independent prep at getting children into the ‘best’ schools, given the competition from the other preps?

Sorry for all the questions! I’m not filled with certainty about the sustainability or effectiveness of the independent school you’re looking at - so I’d want to know more about the state primary, or about other local preps.

Tbh I’m not sure very small children gain anything substantive, beyond a pleasant environment, from a fee paying school, unless it is the only route to entrance higher up the school. I find it’s best to wait until the child begins to reveal their more developed tastes, preferences, talents - and then make an informed choice.

I'd go state at this age. We plan on moving to private for secondary school but our kids go to a local state for primary.

I don't see any value in laying for the early years tbh.

I would go with the state option.

Quite apart from anything else, 20 is too small for a year group imo. Such narrow friendship options. And if kids typically leave after a few years to go to prep, the school's finances must be pretty tight.

State at this stage and move in Year 3, if it doesn’t end up challenging enough or just stay there and get a gentle tutor from Year 4/5 if required, for some further stretch. Do lots of local clubs.

Sounds like there will be an Ofsted visit quite soon for the state primary.

State. Local friends etc

Who will be taking your child to all the clubs ASC if she’s educated in state sector?

I just add because one of the reasons my kids are in the independent sector was the fab wrap round provision, and that they could do lots of clubs and activities before and after school. I knew we would not be able to take them swimming/ballet after school with work.

Phonics is the best way to learn to read - if the independent isn't using synthetic phonics, then I'd be very wary. It suggests they are wedded to the concepts of the 1969s that have now been debunked (I suspect you don't teach this age group)

10 in a year group is too small, and if that's really what is likely to happen between years 3/4 and 6, then again think carefully. There won't be enough for a game of netball, even they have 2 year groups out at the same time. If there are fallings out, there are no changes to regroup. Opportunities for music (other than individual lessons from peris and maybe a bit of small group playing) will not exist. Drama will be small productions only.

So you may end up doing local clubs after school regardless of which school.

If you go to the independent, then moving, with friends, to the other one might be a very sensible choice.

The attractions of afternoon outdoors in a forest school type environment are not going to matter as much once your DC is in KS2.

Personally I lift I was you i would send you me dd to the state school but consider in a couple of years whether you want to do 7-13 prep or many leave after year 5 for private

The thing about clubs in school vs clubs out of school is that clubs out of school enable children to make friends with different children to the ones who they mix with in school. I think this is hugely important and it can be a real life line for kids who are having friendship difficulties in school.

I can see that the kind of one stop shop provision of extracurricular activities in an independent school might be more convenient for parents but I definitely don't think it's the best option for the children. Especially when it's such a small school anyway.

On those numbers I’d go state. Much more people so she’s more likely to find people she gels with. I also agree with PPs that such a small Indy may fail financially especially if many leave at 8.

@cambs22

We need to make a decision about where our DD will start her education, and have narrowed it down to either the local independent primary (only goes to 11) or the equally local state primary.

We have visited the independent and she is currently at pre-school there and is doing really well. She will have 20 in her year but they may lose up to 50% in year 3 as many parents treat the school as a pre-prep before a move to more competitive independent schools.

The local primary will have 60 in her year, is Ofsted outstanding (as of 2010, so who knows), and unfortunately we have been unable to visit due to Covid. But it is well regarded by most parents we speak to.

Ideally we would like DD to stay in one school until 11 when she will go to a prep/independent senior. DH was state educated and wants her to go to the local primary - he thinks she will be more rounded, have lots of local friends and an opportunity to play better sport at local clubs after school. I was privately educated and have taught in both and would prefer her to go to the independent as I think she will have more fun there (afternoons off-site in the forest each week, lots of trips, lots of sports on and off-site, no worries about SATS, rigid phonics and the expectations of the new curriculum that affects the state sector). Also, the size of the small independent means that it has been markedly less affected by Covid than the larger state primary in terms of staff and pupil absence.

Given our choice and our different beliefs, what would you do in our situation? Financially we are in a position to afford private education with no change to our lifestyle. But equally we could invest the money saved for our children for the future, so don't want to make the wrong decision, if there is a wrong decision.

Go private all the way if you can afford.

All the people saying stay in state till 11 are doing it because its cheaper, (to be blunt) if money is no barrier its a no brainer. Investing in your kids education cannot be questioned. My only concern would be to shop around and ensure the prep is worth the money, if it isn't find one that is and take them out and send them there for Reception.

A child coming from state primary to 11+ Indie is at a disadvantage in every way- not in entering the school, the Indie doesn't expect the same from state primaries versus prep kids- but your DC will not be used to a school that provides numerous after school clubs, better facilities, small classes, etc, etc. There's the social side too, contrary to popular belief I think you meet more a complete picture socially at indie school, daughters of wealthy and those with 2 jobs in rented modest homes, International students, in state school, it's much more homogenous.

The only proviso is shop around for the preps, not all preps are the same and if you're paying, pay for the best for your child, which may mean moving them on.

20 in reception is normal to me, some of the best prep schools in London lose children in Y3, where are the kids remaining going at 11? How long has the prep been running and does this always happen?

All the people saying stay in state till 11 are doing it because its cheaper, (to be blunt) if money is no barrier its a no brainer.

What nonsense!

All the people saying stay in state till 11 are doing it because its cheaper, (to be blunt) if money is no barrier its a no brainer. Investing in your kids education cannot be questioned.

Erm … I’d imagine many people reading or posting on this thread, possess, as I do, vast experience of both systems and are responding based on knowledge. The OP is asking for opinions on two specific (though unnamed) schools - and from what she’s says it’s completely clear that she will be highly invested in her child’s education whichever route they take.

@AlexaShutUp

All the people saying stay in state till 11 are doing it because its cheaper, (to be blunt) if money is no barrier its a no brainer.

What nonsense!

Are you seriously telling me a brilliant prep is the same as a brilliant state primary school??

We live in a two tier education system in this country, you may want to pretend or live in some fantasy world that's not the case like most of Northern Europe or the Nordic countries ( where state education is first class) but here in the UK with our class system , king and queens and knowing ones place, it clearly isn't. Sorry to bring reality to this discussion.

@TottersBlankly

All the people saying stay in state till 11 are doing it because its cheaper, (to be blunt) if money is no barrier its a no brainer. Investing in your kids education cannot be questioned.

Erm … I’d imagine many people reading or posting on this thread, possess, as I do, vast experience of both systems and are responding based on knowledge. The OP is asking for opinions on two specific (though unnamed) schools - and from what she’s says it’s completely clear that she will be highly invested in her child’s education whichever route they take.

And if you read my response, I suggested sending the DC to the best prep for the child, not the necessarily the ones they attend at present.

If DH works FT and you are a teacher, how will you get your DD to sports clubs after she finishes school? Does wrap-around not need to be a key consideration for you? What wrap-around does each school offer?

I teach primary and DS goes to a prep. From Y3 onwards the prep finishes at 5 for everybody, having done sport every day and homework (in theory) all finished during form-time. He can stay until 6pm for clubs, which many DC do, and 7.30pm for dinner if necessary. This has enabled me to work full time, take on a senior role etc without him feeling like he was constantly in after school care.

Had he gone to the state school, I could never have got him to external classes and sports clubs when he was little because they tend to be at 3.45, 4ish for the youngest ones.

A child coming from state primary to 11+ Indie is at a disadvantage in every way- not in entering the school, the Indie doesn't expect the same from state primaries versus prep kids- but your DC will not be used to a school that provides numerous after school clubs, better facilities, small classes, etc, etc. There's the social side too, contrary to popular belief I think you meet more a complete picture socially at indie school, daughters of wealthy and those with 2 jobs in rented modest homes, International students, in state school, it's much more homogenous.

It’s evident you don’t know very much about the make-up of state schools.

I had the choice of an outstanding state primary top 10 in the country and moved them from indie Prep and supplemented with exam practice from year 5 and up and it worked well. State now for both - outstanding and the extra money more then cover football drama Horseriding extra tutoring etc given eldest did her GCSEs in some subjects in year 8 and then more in year 9 and now an a level early in year 10 I did have to row with the head at state who wouldn’t put them in early but a local indie school entered her and she got all level 9 state then have allowed me to enter her for others - they don’t like anyone doing different in state.

@LittleBearPad

A child coming from state primary to 11+ Indie is at a disadvantage in every way- not in entering the school, the Indie doesn't expect the same from state primaries versus prep kids- but your DC will not be used to a school that provides numerous after school clubs, better facilities, small classes, etc, etc. There's the social side too, contrary to popular belief I think you meet more a complete picture socially at indie school, daughters of wealthy and those with 2 jobs in rented modest homes, International students, in state school, it's much more homogenous.

It’s evident you don’t know very much about the make-up of state schools.

True, I can only compare the outstanding state primary to the outstanding prep in my area.

No child would have a bad education at the state primary , but it simply couldn't compete with the prep for numerous after school clubs, better facilities, small classes, it's simply a fact.

There are many a prep school I would run a mile from and send my DC to the local 'satisfactory' primary school if that's my only choice. But if you're comparing good state primary with good prep, there is no competition.

If the OP's prep isn't up to much and there isn't a great prep close, of course the OP should choose the state primary.

You seem to think I'm saying state=bad private=good. I'm not, but if you're comparing good state primary with good prep, there is no competition.

I was in a similar situation and my DS went to the local outstanding infants across the road. Fair enough half his time there was covid disrupted but not being top of the class or bottom he fell in the middle and I was thoroughly unimpressed. In a smaller private school someone would have helped him with the things he found hard. In year 2 they only taught half the class how to write in cursive and there really was no reason my DS couldn't have done this. The teachers act like they are doing you a favour if you even dare to ask them anything. Now he is in year 3 at the state juniors and I am moving him to private for year 4 because I can't leave him languishing in state until 11 when he will clearly benefit from private. It is a very straight forward me now I can see clearly that he would have benefited from going private earlier.

On the other hand my DD is currently at the same local outstanding infants and is top of her class and will be fine there although they do not stretch her in anyway but she will be fine in state until 11. Fine but not reaching her full potential. But she is happy so that is good.

I worry about how far behind they will be when they get to private so if money allows I would recommend going private now. But obviously the right private school.

Also I went private from 3 so this is my first experience of the state system and I just don't feel like the school and teachers care about your child as they are too stressed and over worked so how can they? I don't blame them; it's the system.

@TottersBlankly I am not sure what to call the senior independent schools around us as they are all 3-18 schools so would have a number of children joining at 11, and some of these would be from the state sector. The small local prep is very successful at getting scholarships and places at all these schools, so from that side of things I am not too worried. We are not in London, so competition for places is not too fierce.

From what we've gathered, it isn't necessarily the most able who leave at Year 3, rather the children whose parents worry that they wouldn't get into their chosen school at 11, and also those who follow the traditional prep route. Staff morale seems high, and the small numbers are historic, so is something that the school seems to budget for. Superficially, nothing seems amiss and the school appears to be in a good place, but I agree that on paper it sounds concerning.

@MelCat yes this concerns me - as it would all be on me. For one child this would be manageable, but once they are all in school will quickly become very tricky to manage

OP can you easily afford the fees? We can afford private school because of my job (I earn twice what DH) does. We couldn’t do this if I earned the same as him. I don’t mind the longer hours and my DH was the one who went part-time when they were little so he facilitates my ability to work; however, if I was not on board with private school I think it would be hard to work those hours thinking, “3.5k a month after tax (so effectively the first 7k) is going on school fees I didn’t want to pay”. As it is my children love school and to see them go every day bounding in makes it worth it.

Also those saying no local friends I think it depends where you live. Within 2 miles my children all have at least 2 close friends.

Not saying whether state or private is better - that is your call to make with the choices that are available to you.

However, if your intention is private secondary and money is not an issue, I would go private all the way.
See how your DC is doing in Y1 - if they seem ahead of the curve at that stage then take advantage of this and go for 7+ in a run-through school to 18y.
It’s not a bad thing if they are not, they are so young at that age and the gaps in attainment are relatively wide. By the time they are 11, they have generally caught up with each other.
If you stay until 11+ then let the school
prep your DC and support as needed.

In our local area, the competition for places and the complexities of the assessments are harder the older the child gets. So the sooner you can get them into a run-through the easier.

Good luck!