State vs independent

[cambs22]

We need to make a decision about where our DD will start her education, and have narrowed it down to either the local independent primary (only goes to 11) or the equally local state primary.

We have visited the independent and she is currently at pre-school there and is doing really well. She will have 20 in her year but they may lose up to 50% in year 3 as many parents treat the school as a pre-prep before a move to more competitive independent schools.

The local primary will have 60 in her year, is Ofsted outstanding (as of 2010, so who knows), and unfortunately we have been unable to visit due to Covid. But it is well regarded by most parents we speak to.

Ideally we would like DD to stay in one school until 11 when she will go to a prep/independent senior. DH was state educated and wants her to go to the local primary - he thinks she will be more rounded, have lots of local friends and an opportunity to play better sport at local clubs after school. I was privately educated and have taught in both and would prefer her to go to the independent as I think she will have more fun there (afternoons off-site in the forest each week, lots of trips, lots of sports on and off-site, no worries about SATS, rigid phonics and the expectations of the new curriculum that affects the state sector). Also, the size of the small independent means that it has been markedly less affected by Covid than the larger state primary in terms of staff and pupil absence.

Given our choice and our different beliefs, what would you do in our situation? Financially we are in a position to afford private education with no change to our lifestyle. But equally we could invest the money saved for our children for the future, so don't want to make the wrong decision, if there is a wrong decision.

Are you seriously telling me a brilliant prep is the same as a brilliant state primary school??

What I'm seriously telling you is that money was categorically not the reason why I didn't send my dd to a private school, so your sweeping statement simply isn't true. We could have comfortably afforded private and we looked at a number of independent options, including some which had a reputation for being "outstanding". We also looked at a number of state primaries. I felt that the best state primary offered an education that was far more in line with what I wanted for my dd than any of the independent options, so it was a complete no brainer to send her there.

I have had quite a lot of contact with some of the "top" private schools in a professional capacity, and I am less than convinced that they produce a worthwhile return on investment for most families. I think they probably do wonders for some academically average kids who need a bit more attention, or for very shy kids who need to be pushed outside of their comfort zones, or for lazy kids who need a bit more pushing than average. However, for a bright, confident, motivated child, I don't think they add much value at all unless the only alternative is a school that is really failing.

We socialise with lots of people who have gone down the private route with their kids. Some are happy with what they're paying for and some are not. Either way, it's really obvious to me that my dd has not missed out, either in terms of the quality of her school experience or the educational/socialise outcomes. So I'm glad that we saved the money and that we can use that to support her future in different ways.

I'm not saying that all schools are equal. Some are clearly better than others, but it isn't a simple state/private divide. If our only state options had been awful, we would have paid for private so I don't judge anyone who chooses that option for their child. I do judge people who lack the critical thinking ability to realise that some parents might choose state education for reasons other than financial ones.

We considered Private Primary but as we had a good State option we went for that. It was the right decision for both DC for the following reasons - with the caveat that when DD started in Y7 she struggled a bit due to established friendships, although DS didn’t.
The DC had (and still have) friends from a variety of backgrounds
The DC have friends outside school
We saved a lot of money and there was no knowledge gap for the DC
The DC were a lot more streetwise than a lot of their peers
DD has integrated better into the large 6th for college than a lot of her peers
The DC had quite an easy time at Primary without a lot of homework etc ( but as I said no knowledge gap in Y7)

@AlexaShutUp yes money is not the reason why we are considering the state primary over the independent prep and it is really helpful to hear your experience. We want the best school for our daughter and at 3.5 it is hard to know what that is at the moment. She is bright, confident and sociable so I think she will probably be fine in either school.
I do however think that the state primary will give her more opportunities for socialising with a wide range of people. After school clubs will be independent of the school and I agree that having friends outside school is really important for mental well-being.
I am however concerned that after reception the Year 1 curriculum is a bit stifling at the the moment - my close friends who have children at state primaries report how much their children hate school at the moment, and this worries me.

@Hoppinggreen did your DC go to comprehensives in Year 7? Or independent? It's good to hear that they had a great experience in the local primary

@MelCat yes we can easily afford the fees without my OH feeling resentment. I think for both of us there is the fear of the unknown. I hadn't considered entry to an independent at 7+ but this might be a good compromise for both of us.

@cambs22, it does sound like your dd is the type who will thrive anywhere.

It's hard to comment on the primary curriculum in general, as we are long past that stage with dd and I am only familiar now with dd's old primary school where I'm a governor. I think covid has certainly put a limit on some of the more enriching activities that schools have been able to offer due to the risk assessments that have been carried out, but they are getting back to normal now.

When dd was at primary school, I remember some of my friends who went private being really concerned about the focus on SATS and wanting to bypass all that. All I can say is that it really wasn't an issue for my dd. The school did not put an excessive emphasis on SATS at all. She didn't even know that she had done them in Year 2 and she was totally unfazed by them in Year 6. In fact, she actually quite liked the assessment period because they got longer playtimes and chocolate after each test! I certainly didn't feel that the SATS were dominating in any way, even though she was the first cohort to switch over to the newer, more challenging format. Quite the contrary tbh, she had lots of opportunities for enrichment and as a very able pupil, lots of extra input that really stretched and nurtured her talents. I am aware that primary school funding is somewhat tighter these days, so some of the opportunities my daughter enjoyed are no longer on offer, but even with a limited budget, I think the school is incredibly creative in offering a broad and exciting curriculum to kids, and the focus is very much on developing them in a holistic way, not just teaching to the test.

Private.

[quote cambs22]@Hoppinggreen did your DC go to comprehensives in Year 7? Or independent? It's good to hear that they had a great experience in the local primary [/quote]
You aren't asking me but my dd went to the local comp in Year 7. She really thrived there too and came out with straight 9s at GCSE. She is also very confident, articulate, has excellent social skills etc - all the things that people often associate with private schools.

A few of her friends from primary went to independent secondaries and we have stayed in touch with them over the years. They all seemed to make the transition from state to private very easily.

Year 2 SATs are being scrapped soon however as per a previous poster DD was oblivious to them happening.

My point @namethattuneinone is you say state schools are more homogenous than private which is simply not true. By definition private schools require a certain income. The social make-up of state schools is far wider.

@LittleBearPad

Year 2 SATs are being scrapped soon however as per a previous poster DD was oblivious to them happening.

My point @namethattuneinone is you say state schools are more homogenous than private which is simply not true. By definition private schools require a certain income. The social make-up of state schools is far wider.

The social make-up of state schools is far wider. By definition private schools require a certain income.

The social make up state schools is simply local. It's just a reflection of where you live, in a strict radius with very few exceptions. At a friends London prep school they have kids from all over the place, in every direction, from every class , some families making massive sacrifices others celeb rich with jets, some came in at 7+ on zero fees with bursaries..Most of the top preps offer this.

Maybe 20 years ago there was a uniform prep school type, but certainly in London its completely mixed up these days, my local state primary was simply families that lived close and it wasn't particularly diverse, everyone is the same - income wise and class.

But considering the dominance of private schools at top universities , the top of legal professions, banking, the BBC, journalism, Medicine politics, Jesus even acting - I remember reading A 2016 report from the Sutton Trust revealed that (67%) of British Oscar winners were privately educated.- This suggests to me that state school education misses a whole section of society that essentially dominate this country. Or we could all pretend how it all doesn't matter what school you went to...

[quote cambs22]@Hoppinggreen did your DC go to comprehensives in Year 7? Or independent? It's good to hear that they had a great experience in the local primary [/quote]
State Primary
Private Secondary.
Our State Primary is good but the Secondary is awful

Also in terms of social make-up I disagree more diverse in state sector per se.

I live in the SE. Housing is extortionate. We have 2 primaries which are outstanding. All drawing from catchments where you would struggle to buy anything under 3/4 million pounds. The intake is predominantly white middle class children. There are 2 schools which are far more diverse and there catchment is the 2 areas of social housing.

My children’s indecent school is probably 40% ethnic minorities. There is definitely a culture element. My DH is from a culture where families literally spend every spare penny (work second jobs) to put kids through private school.

The social make up state schools is simply local. It's just a reflection of where you live, in a strict radius with very few exceptions. At a friends London prep school they have kids from all over the place, in every direction, from every class , some families making massive sacrifices others celeb rich with jets, some came in at 7+ on zero fees with bursaries..Most of the top preps offer this.

Maybe 20 years ago there was a uniform prep school type, but certainly in London its completely mixed up these days, my local state primary was simply families that lived close and it wasn't particularly diverse, everyone is the same - income wise and class.

But considering the dominance of private schools at top universities , the top of legal professions, banking, the BBC, journalism, Medicine politics, Jesus even acting - I remember reading A 2016 report from the Sutton Trust revealed that (67%) of British Oscar winners were privately educated.- This suggests to me that state school education misses a whole section of society that essentially dominate this country. Or we could all pretend how it all doesn't matter what school you went to...

Living in London, the ‘catchment area’ includes deprived council estates and multi million pound houses. Our school has children from both. If you think a prep school will have that range of children you’re deluded.

Arguing that state schools don’t produce Benedict Cumberbatches is simply silly. Hugely privileged actor succeeds - well hold the front page!

@LittleBearPad

The social make up state schools is simply local. It's just a reflection of where you live, in a strict radius with very few exceptions. At a friends London prep school they have kids from all over the place, in every direction, from every class , some families making massive sacrifices others celeb rich with jets, some came in at 7+ on zero fees with bursaries..Most of the top preps offer this.

Maybe 20 years ago there was a uniform prep school type, but certainly in London its completely mixed up these days, my local state primary was simply families that lived close and it wasn't particularly diverse, everyone is the same - income wise and class.

But considering the dominance of private schools at top universities , the top of legal professions, banking, the BBC, journalism, Medicine politics, Jesus even acting - I remember reading A 2016 report from the Sutton Trust revealed that (67%) of British Oscar winners were privately educated.- This suggests to me that state school education misses a whole section of society that essentially dominate this country. Or we could all pretend how it all doesn't matter what school you went to...

Living in London, the ‘catchment area’ includes deprived council estates and multi million pound houses. Our school has children from both. If you think a prep school will have that range of children you’re deluded.

Arguing that state schools don’t produce Benedict Cumberbatches is simply silly. Hugely privileged actor succeeds - well hold the front page!

Oh come off it.

Your telling me the parents of multi million pound houses play fair for places at outstanding primaries and the school themselves are as eager with parents from deprived council estates?? What I've seen from Ealing, to Hackney to Peckham to East Dulwich is primary schools become middle classed bubbles of privilege and the less rated schools become the dumping ground for everyone else. Even when kids from 'deprived council estates' get in, with deprivation comes social problems and these kids get excluded.

An old uni friend teaches at a Harris Academy school in inner London, rated 'outstanding' he tells me they actively manage out 'problem kids' who almost always are kids from deprived backgrounds.

Do these kids at your school socialise on any equal footing? Do the mums from the council estate and the million pound houses go for a Cartado and Flat white in the chic little coffee shop that just opened on the high street? Honest question, how much mixing goes on in your school @LittleBearPad

The difference at Prep is that all parents are on an equal footing of sorts, they all have to find fees if that means 3 jobs, bursaries or just a fraction of your income.

If my point on the dominance of privately educated in all professions in this country was lost on you...Remember this - take a look at this years Oscar nominations - who are the British actors nominated this year? ...Best male actors ...Best Female Actors.....Mmmm.

We had this a few years ago when deciding how we wanted our son’s schooling to go.

We could have afforded private easily, but weren’t really feeling it as we were both fully state educated and turned out ok.

Our key considerations were:

1. Happiness of our son - we thought he’d be equally happy in either as he wouldn’t know the difference and he was an easy going child.

1. Opportunities - the extra in school opportunities in private balanced out with the opportunity to do loads of out of school activities

1. Attainment - the general attainment was always going to be higher in the private than our (at that point) local state

1. Makeup of class - I’m not afraid to admit I have a bias towards a “better off” class, whether this is due to misconceptions or not. Private school preferable here.

Despite the above leaning towards private on paper, we opted to move into the catchment on a state school that we really loved. This involved an uplift in house price of at least £200k, so definitely not purely financially motivated. We basically bought into an affluent area with great schools which meant points 3 and 4 were moot. I absolutely adore his school. He’s happy, I love that his friends are really local and the teachers throughout are spot on.

Had we stayed where we previously lived, it would have without a doubt been private school for us.

20 in a year with many leaving at year 3 would be the worry for me. I've seen year groups go down to 12, but of that only 3 were girls and it was fairly inevitable that they would then all leave. The school eventually folded.

Majority of children (children of people who I know) from state primaries got places in private schools at 7+, 8+ or 11+ after heavy tutoring.
As far as I know state primaries do not prepare for exams for private schools or grammars.
If you can tutor yourself or have time to take you DC to tutors that should work.

Do these kids at your school socialise on any equal footing? Do the mums from the council estate and the million pound houses go for a Cartado and Flat white in the chic little coffee shop that just opened on the high street? Honest question, how much mixing goes on in your school @LittleBearPad**

The children go to one another’s parties, they have play dates. Primary school children are friends with the children they like. I’m not sure why you find this so strange or unlikely. I can’t speak for the coffee shops you speak so contemptuously of - I work so don’t do coffees after drop off.

@AlexaShutUp

Are you seriously telling me a brilliant prep is the same as a brilliant state primary school??

What I'm seriously telling you is that money was categorically not the reason why I didn't send my dd to a private school, so your sweeping statement simply isn't true. We could have comfortably afforded private and we looked at a number of independent options, including some which had a reputation for being "outstanding". We also looked at a number of state primaries. I felt that the best state primary offered an education that was far more in line with what I wanted for my dd than any of the independent options, so it was a complete no brainer to send her there.

I have had quite a lot of contact with some of the "top" private schools in a professional capacity, and I am less than convinced that they produce a worthwhile return on investment for most families. I think they probably do wonders for some academically average kids who need a bit more attention, or for very shy kids who need to be pushed outside of their comfort zones, or for lazy kids who need a bit more pushing than average. However, for a bright, confident, motivated child, I don't think they add much value at all unless the only alternative is a school that is really failing.

We socialise with lots of people who have gone down the private route with their kids. Some are happy with what they're paying for and some are not. Either way, it's really obvious to me that my dd has not missed out, either in terms of the quality of her school experience or the educational/socialise outcomes. So I'm glad that we saved the money and that we can use that to support her future in different ways.

I'm not saying that all schools are equal. Some are clearly better than others, but it isn't a simple state/private divide. If our only state options had been awful, we would have paid for private so I don't judge anyone who chooses that option for their child. I do judge people who lack the critical thinking ability to realise that some parents might choose state education for reasons other than financial ones.

That doesn't contradict what I said, you found a brilliant state primary that "offered an education that was far more in line with what I wanted ''.

You didn't find a brilliant private , so went state. I realise many parents choose state education for reasons other than financial ones, WHEN they can afford to do so, i.e they have the option to go private as a back up, and find a state school, like you, that ticks all their boxes.

@LittleBearPad

Do these kids at your school socialise on any equal footing? Do the mums from the council estate and the million pound houses go for a Cartado and Flat white in the chic little coffee shop that just opened on the high street? Honest question, how much mixing goes on in your school *@LittleBearPad*

The children go to one another’s parties, they have play dates. Primary school children are friends with the children they like. I’m not sure why you find this so strange or unlikely. I can’t speak for the coffee shops you speak so contemptuously of - I work so don’t do coffees after drop off.

Ok @LittleBearPad

Under 11s will mix with no prejudice, I agree completely.

I'll have to take your word for it that middle classed mums in multi-million pound houses are taking their children to parties and playdates in deprived council estates, sounds like a great school, almost utopian.

You do know the coffee thing , I was taking the Michael??

A parent shouldn't have to justify a decision to go private , or state, its a personal decision. True I was riling a few people here defending State, but I honestly believe you do you, there is no wrong answer when you're acting in what you believe is the best for your child.

For me personally and everyone I know, finding over 100K to finance a DC from Reception to Y6 is a CONSIDERABLE consideration, so I do find it strange when people say its not a consideration, of course I accept that for some like @AlexaShutUp , "some parents might choose state education for reasons other than financial ones."

The thread is about primary school though so over 11s are a bit irrelevant and million pound houses aren’t abnormal in London sadly for most 20 somethings.

I get the sarcasm. I’m just not sure why it’s necessary or why you need to ‘rile’ people who made different decisions to you?

@LittleBearPad

The thread is about primary school though so over 11s are a bit irrelevant and million pound houses aren’t abnormal in London sadly for most 20 somethings.

I get the sarcasm. I’m just not sure why it’s necessary or why you need to ‘rile’ people who made different decisions to you?

@LittleBearPad

Over 11's?? Whose talking about them?? Most Londoners with primary school kids who live in multi million pound houses aren't in their 20's. They are in their 30's and 40's, or even 50's, yes, but not 20's, but you may move in different circles to me.

I wish I could drop the sarcasm but it's just so damn hard with some people.

Anyway, Back to the OP.

OP said it's a good prep, OP has access to good state.

I'd say choose the prep for facilities if that is the case. That is all.

I'd go private from the start - I didn't and I wish I had. The covid point - we hope covid is behind us but we don't know, our local state schools have had another year of huge disruption. If you're happy to do a huge amount of heavy lifting of primary education yourself this may be fine but only if your dc can cope with a rolling cast of teaching and support staff.

It does depend a bit on how resilient you think your dc are. I agree we have a two tier education system - assume you've checked these points but we found pastoral care, individual attention, wraparound care quality, differentiation of lessons to all abilities and encouraging all abilities were hugely better in the private school we moved our dc to.

And in a school with only 20 children a year, a number of whom leave at the end of infants I would say go state. Far more likely to have a variety of children to make friends with if there are 60 children a year and considerably less risk the school will go bust.

Spend the money saved on after school clubs your DC actually wants to go to, move at the end of KS1 or KS2.

@namethattuneinone you questioned whether children from different backgrounds mixed but then acknowledged under 11s do. My supposition was you were therefore talking about over 11s who didn’t mix?

My point about 20somethings was because they will struggle to buy houses in the future.

There’s no need to be quite so aggressive or angry.