State vs independent

[cambs22]

We need to make a decision about where our DD will start her education, and have narrowed it down to either the local independent primary (only goes to 11) or the equally local state primary.

We have visited the independent and she is currently at pre-school there and is doing really well. She will have 20 in her year but they may lose up to 50% in year 3 as many parents treat the school as a pre-prep before a move to more competitive independent schools.

The local primary will have 60 in her year, is Ofsted outstanding (as of 2010, so who knows), and unfortunately we have been unable to visit due to Covid. But it is well regarded by most parents we speak to.

Ideally we would like DD to stay in one school until 11 when she will go to a prep/independent senior. DH was state educated and wants her to go to the local primary - he thinks she will be more rounded, have lots of local friends and an opportunity to play better sport at local clubs after school. I was privately educated and have taught in both and would prefer her to go to the independent as I think she will have more fun there (afternoons off-site in the forest each week, lots of trips, lots of sports on and off-site, no worries about SATS, rigid phonics and the expectations of the new curriculum that affects the state sector). Also, the size of the small independent means that it has been markedly less affected by Covid than the larger state primary in terms of staff and pupil absence.

Given our choice and our different beliefs, what would you do in our situation? Financially we are in a position to afford private education with no change to our lifestyle. But equally we could invest the money saved for our children for the future, so don't want to make the wrong decision, if there is a wrong decision.

@LittleBearPad

I don't know many under 11's who take themselves on playdates and parties, do you?

The property market in London has left stark contrasts and less diversity across London, very poor and very rich and never the twain meeting. Except at certain state primaries of course!

No, barring reception they tend to go home from school with their friends and get picked up later by their parents. They also get dropped off at parties? Just like prep school children surely with their wide acquaintanceship. The parents meet in the evening in the pub or the park on weekends - again presumably like their prep school counterparts?

@LittleBearPad

Sounds like a very unique London primary school, polar ends of social classes mixing like that. "Multi million pound" home owners heading into "deprived council estates" to pick up their little Noah.

No it’s not. It’s quite normal for there to be a range of income levels at a state primary in London. Some children will receive PPG, others will have parents on six figure salaries. I’m not quite sure why you don’t believe this?

[quote namethattuneinone]@LittleBearPad

Sounds like a very unique London primary school, polar ends of social classes mixing like that. "Multi million pound" home owners heading into "deprived council estates" to pick up their little Noah.[/quote]
And this is simply unpleasant.

@LittleBearPad This exchange is getting rather silly and has nothing to do with state versus private, essentially. The OP doesn't even live in London.

BUT

My own observations of London primary schools in diverse areas of ethnicity and class in London, is the kids all mix up, but when it comes to 'best friends' playdates , class remained a greater barrier than things like ethnicity. This was a two way pull, so expertly shown tongue in cheek in Motherland. Working class people felt they had nothing in common with the middle class parents and vica versa, even where kids were mates.

If your London primary does have genuine cross-class friendships, and none of the cliquey stuff I've witnessed, that's great.

It is not hardly typical though, Look at the boards on here , outstanding schools attract middle classed parents, who can game their DC chances of getting in, reverse LEA decisions much more than parents struggling in "deprived council estates" can, they are in a more privileged position, they are not the same. They are reticent to allow friendships to bloom with a parent they have nothing in common with class wise.

Sure this happens in Prep, certain family types know each other from a social scene of Gold Cup or whatever, their kids are going to be close and yours not, but in my experience there is vastly more mixing of children as best friends from different backgrounds in London preps compared to London primaries. I wish I was wrong.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33329575

This is me signing off this thread, best of luck to your DC @LittleBearPad

State school all the way. Who wants to end up with a little brat?

I think you need to agree on such a big decision so If your husband isn’t onboard then it’s a non-starter.

I think the prep would be too small for me as I’d be concerned about opportunities for playing sport as well as friendships. However, you should go with your gut about what your child needs and what is the right fit.

@IsThePopeCatholic

State school all the way. Who wants to end up with a little brat?

What an absurd comment. If you have nothing mildly intelligent to add, keep your nonsense to yourself.

Do people who worry about class of 13-20 pupils talk about a school in a rural area? Just trying to understand.
I am in London. My neighbour's friend sent her daughter to a small private school with Reception class size of 13-15. She said she liked it is "home-to-home" environment. I saw the girl when she was playing with my neighbour's daughter and my son in front of our house. The girl looked confident, bright and older than her age.
In small schools like than children from 2 or 3 years play together outdoors. They can choose friends amount 28-30 children.
Other neighbour's children got to the nearby state school. The children are 5 and 7 but I have never seen any of their school friends coming to play around. We live in a gated community with large communal gardens. They live in 3-bedroom house so there is plenty of space for children to play but yet no school friends ever visited them so I wonder if they got any.

Having a small class at prep isn't detrimental to sport.

I know some preps with classes a lot less than 20, from Y3 or so the sporty ones regularly play other prep schools and given the breadth of clubs in most preps, your DC finds their place , be that sports that are less 'team' like tennis or horse-riding and swimming to the schools netball, rugby and football etc.

They wouldn't miss out.

@Babalugats I think the point about sport is in-school sport. Small classes are fine if there are multiple classes in a year group. However, forming teams to play against each other for various sports and at a reasonable level in school becomes really tricky when year groups are only 10 students as would be the case in this situation.

Indeed. Absolutely no problem with small classes - that’s part of what you pay for. But small year groups definitely make a school uncompetitive in lots of ways.

Large preps can field several teams per year in all their major sports - impossible to compete on an even footing if you can only offer one team per sport.

And in a large year group there are enough for small groups to go their own thing, in extra-curricular stuff particularly. Just not possible where you need half the year group to make any activity viable.

Some of us actively chose a prep that has no more than 20 in a class, like Old Palace.

It still has A and B sports teams, holds it own against local schools in Netball comps etc, and teams up with Whitgift boys for school drama productions . My DD doesn't miss out at all on sports, in fact Old Palace is sports mad considering the classes are so small. But the small classes means its a very close school with a family feel. I couldn't bear it at a huge school, on parents evening the teachers really know your daughter. Financially the school has the deep pockets of the Whitgift foundation behind it, so hopefully we'll remain with small classes.

For the OP, it sounds like the prep is making their numbers work, sometimes less is more.

I was making a distinction between small classes and a small year group.

The first is fine, the second could be problematic.

(My recent experience is with one of the most thriving Oxfordshire boarding preps.)

Sorry, I meant year group. In my DD year there's less than 20. The Prep school site is large, but the pupil numbers are small so it feels very relaxed. Same as the senior site.

Sport seems all set up around the four houses in the school, rather than her year group. Lunch, sport, teams, all house based. My DD has friends in years above her at Prep all through her house and they have so many competitions , it seems really encouraged at the school, perhaps because of the small year sizes.

I think the vast majority of parents are happy with the set up as the vast majority go all through. My DD is very happy at the school.

There's quite a difference between 20-ish per year group and a total of 60 pupils in the whole school

@EdithWeston

There's quite a difference between 20-ish per year group and a total of 60 pupils in the whole school

Don't know how useful any comparison is, our school has larger numbers in the senior I believe, typically in South East, many parents skip prep and go for indie school at 11, that's where the demand is.

My point was organised on a house system, the prep doesn't have to organise teams based on year groups, but your right the school sounds very small, but from what the OP says it seems to "work."

One has to choose the best for their child, a small, close school may be ideal over a large sporty one.

@Oldpalace123 thank you for this. Yes the school is small but has that family feel and seems to work with the numbers it has (these are historic and haven't changed suddenly). I am not particularly concerned with small numbers regarding sport as it only goes up to 11. I think as long as the basics are taught well, being on the receiving end of some losses in netball and hockey due to a lack of strength in depth will do them no harm when they start a bigger school at 11+

OP there was a brilliant thread about a month ago on here with a poster asking if a bright child would do equally well going to a good state or good Prep. It was overwhelmingly comments that it’s simply not true that a bright child can do well anywhere as the system in state schools can be limiting. You only have to look at the Staffroom board on here to see the difficulties that state school teachers face trying to do more and more work in less time. Something has to give and it’s often creative lesson planning, clubs and activities, more homogeneous teaching and the less able and most able aren’t the focus. Try and find that thread and look at the Staffroom board.

I also believe that an excellent education in the early years is crucial. Being stretched at that age can really affect the learning behaviours as children get older. That’s why we chose private from Reception

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4431304-Do-you-think-it-s-true-that-bright-children-do-well-anywhere

We recently moved our reception kids from an outstanding state to an independent with a class size of 10.

What I didn’t understand about ousted (not a uk native) is how much pressure they are under to get kids to a certain level by assessments in spring. My summer born twins (so barely 4) were identified as ‘behind’ by October, and as a result we’re given loads of additional phonics to do in class and at home to ‘catch up’. It was stressing me and the kids out, and felt like it was sucking all the joy from learning.

The private school has a more relaxed approach to learning timelines and takes a more holistic approach that means loads of time spent doing fun but enriching activities that are less worksheet based. The teacher also helped identify different learning styles between my two and identify tailored ways of supporting them. They are making great progress, but more importantly enjoying it and feeling confident.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the view that there’s no point in private in early years. The lower ratios mean far more individualised support, and a strong foundation upon which everything else is later built. They can’t play netball as a class, but they can do loads of other activities that would be more challenging with a larger group - weekly swimming, impromptu excursions, etc.

I will also echo that managing extracurricular clubs can be a real challenge, even as someone with a really flexible schedule. I had every intention of getting them into 2 activities a week, but logistics are a real struggle unless you live somewhere central to the activities.

@cambs22 hi what did u decide eventually (state vs private)? How did it work out eventually for u? Plz do share ur experiences