Interested in teachers' views... Any teachers here?

[cassiekmx]

My DS started primary school last year and I enrolled him in a local karate club around the same time.
He's a mixed race child living in a predominately white area (small village). There's already been a racist incident at school, but school dealt with it brilliantly. Can't fault them.
Anyway, I bring up my son to defend himself, not to cower away from bullies (not being bullied and never has, just want to pre-empt).
That's why I send him to karate (which he really enjoys).
Meanwhile, he keeps saying kids at his school are not allowed to hit
back (in self-defence). Just to be clear, I'd never condone him being an aggressor but I've always told him if someone hits him first then he must hit back and that I'd tell the school teachers exactly this and explain that he learns karate precisely for self-defence.
Karate instructor told me that his teenage son (a black belt) was set upon by 5 boys from his school and fought off every single one of them, some got broken teeth etc but the school STILL blamed him. For defending himself against 5 bullies! This father told the school they're talking rubbish and that he'll defend his son's right to stand up to bullies.
I couldn't agree more but get frustrated when my son say things like "we're not allowed to hit back" or "we just have to tell a teacher.". IMO, bullies NEED to be hit back.
So if you're not "allowed" to hit back in the event of bullying, you cower from them or simply allow them to do what they want? Struggling to see any logic in this!
Do ALL teachers believe the best thing is not to hit back??

I am not a teacher but I agree with you OP.

My mother always taught me you never hit first, but you always hit back twice as hard.

I only ever had to do it once or twice but I never got hurt!

I left school in 2000 though so times have no doubt changed. I wouldn't discipline my child for hitting back though.

From the school's point of view, you can't have any ambiguity in the message.

School rule is - NO VIOLENCE. No hitting, no kicking, regardless of circumstances. Speak to a teacher.

If the school starts telling children that they are allowed to hit, in some circumstances... then some children will use that or interpret that in all kinds of ways.

The issue is that if you hit back you're both in trouble because you both did something wrong. If you can get away and tell someone only the bullies get into trouble. At secondary school both kids will get isolation in the case of fighting.

I don't think fights just suddenly start. If someone pushes you or gets in your face, it gives you verbal, you can walk away and tell someone it happened. No one just punches someone without a build up. You don't need to run scared but walk away and get that bully into biiiiig trouble.

If your child only started primary last year then he's still in reception, so I don't agree it's ever ok to teach them to hit back at this age. In lower primary, children are not bullies, even if they do the occasional unkind thing, so there is no need to teach your child to hit.

You sound like you're setting him up to be a victim, assuming that he's not only going to be bullied, but also that he won't be able to cope with it without using violence himself.

I'd agree with you at secondary school in cases of real bullying, but at this age you are wrong not to teach your child to get help from an adult and use their words if someone is unkind. In my school, your child would still be punished for hitting, and your opinion would get no support from staff at all.

No one punches someone without a buildup

Sometimes they do.

In general though I do think the message about hitting back isn’t a great one, although I understand why people do.

Teacher here. There has to be a clear message, no violence, so no hitting/attacking. You tell an adult who deals with the situation. Hitting someone is not the answer, you need to be a bigger person than the bully and deal with it in the correct manner.

Karate, and some other martial arts, equip the user to block and defend themselves from attack, so well worth doing.
Hopefully karate will instil your DS with a confidence that is likely to dissuade physical violence.
I don't think the 'hitting back' is a good message for anyone.

The hitting back isn't right, but realistically, it's a better deterrent than telling a teacher. Teachers have such limited powers, all they can do is lecture the child or make them miss a playtime, and a bully might use that as an excuse to blame the victim for getting him into trouble.

If your son is learning Karate, wasn't there a rule that you are not allowed to use it outside of the club, for whatever reason? My dc's club did. I think your fist or kick is considered a weapon, so it won't go down well, I assume.
They learn the self defense technique too, to defend yourself, not to hit or cause damage, but to get away from the harm?
My dc is blackbelt(junior) too. And children knows, so, they won't dare attack him, I think.

I'm with you - but ultimately I also think the school is right to take this stand otherwise it would be impossible for them.

DS has been told to toe the party line and tell someone every time his bully hurts him. But if he ever hits his bully, he will likely get in trouble at school even though I would hope there would be some discretion in the language used / severity of punishment as this has been going on for years.

But he knows he would not get in trouble at home for it.

I think that's all you can do at this age.

Former secondary teacher here. I will be telling my children that they should never, ever initiate any physical violence but that they should absolutely defend themselves if necessary.

The thing is the message needs to be clear and consistent no violence, no kicking,no hitting etc.

You think your kid should hit back, fair enough. What will you do if then he's being hit even harder or gets in a full blown fight?

What will you do if he hits someone that hit him by accident? This happens a lot with kids that are taught to "defend " themselves.

What will you do if he hits someone by accident and they punch him in the face because they were "defending " themselves?

What will you do if he takes words or other actions as aggression and he throws the first punch?

What will you do if someone hits him, he hits back and they're both in trouble?

Here's the thing, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

There might be a point and a time where he might possibly have to defend himself but now is not that point or the time.

If this is how you choose to parent, it's your choice regardless of what I think. Just don't expect the school to reinforce or support that choice and that message and be prepared to put up with the consequences.

I am a teacher of 30+ years.
Generally speaking, small children being told to ‘hit back’ generally doesn’t end well. Hitting back isn’t self defence. It’s fighting. Self defence is blocking an attempt from someone trying to hit you, and then walking away. Children don’t understand this subtle difference - and neither do their parents! I’ve seen small children kick other children who may have pushed them, children who have full in punched other children in the face when the other child has punched them in the arm. I’ve seen a child end up with a fractured skill after being pushed to the ground and hitting their head against a wall because he tigged a child too hard in a game of chase.
Karate is NOT a defence martial art - it is designed as an attacking martial art. My ex was a black belt and teacher of it. He made 9t very clear to the children at his dojo that if he found out they’d used karate to hurt any other child they would be in big trouble.

In my experience, parents that are obsessed with teaching their young children to 'hit back' (when as you say he has had no issues with bullying or being hit by others) are often the parents of the DC causing all the problems.

Why is this such a big topic of conversation in your house? I have a 9 & 7yo and it's never come up.

Back to your question. You can't have young children constantly fighting. BOTH children will whole heartedly believe that they are the victim, because they're children and don't always see things as adults do. So rather than scrapping in the playground, the best thing to do is move yourself away from the situation and ask an adult to help.

I have a son and yes I want him to stand up for himself and defend himself if absolutely necessary, but tbh I would rather he walked away. Not lured into violence because I've drummed into him that it's weak not to hit back. Violence breeds more violence, who knows where it could end? Not my precious son, no thank you.

I also think a lot of parents do not know what bullying is. It's not a one off incident, it's purposely targeting the same person over a perlonged period.

Your instructor's story sounds very unlikely and more of a police matter, than a school one.

Your DS is too young to understand appropriate violence at this stage so teaching hitting back will cause escalation.
Your example about being attacked by 5 bullies is clear cut, but it’s rare it happens like that. More likely is, eg:
DC1 takes something that DC2 wanted. DC1 had no idea DC2 wanted it.
DC2 grabs it and says they wanted it.
DC1 grabs it back.
DC2 grabs it back, but in doing so accidentally pulls DC1 who stumbles and falls over. No harm done but DC1 feels they have been wronged as they don’t realise it’s accidental.
DC1 gets up and punches DC2 very hard, breaking DC2 nose.

So who is in the wrong?

Totally agree with martial arts bring about self defence though. You use the aggressors actions against them, not initiating aggression yourself.

At my last school the rule was that if you had the opportunity to walk away but decided to hit back, then you will also be punished. We try to teach that violence isn't a good way forward. If you were backed into a corner (metaphorically) and couldn't walk away, then self defence is acceptable.

Although there's always this feeling that we want our kids to hit bullies back, so they don't become a perpetual 'victim', but it's possibly not a very good life lesson. Firstly, in all the fight I've dealt with, it's rarely a 'bully' hitting a 'victim'. Secondly, when these kids are 18/19/20 going out in town, do you want them to walk away from a random fight if possible? Or get right into it without knowing if their attacker has a weapon for example?

I'm surprised your son's karate teacher would encourage them to use karate outside of the club to hit back. When I learnt karate it was very clear that we were never to use it to hit or attack someone even if they started it. You are training in techniques that could kill someone if misused. What if he responds to little Lucy pushing him in the playground with a deadly blow? What they did teach us was how to block and disarm and how to get out of various holds if someone grabs you, tries to hit you or pulls a knife, but it never involves hitting back. De-escalate, disarm and get out of the situation and go for help: hitting back is the worst thing he can do. In my experience school bullying is primarily verbal anyway and frequently it's the victim that they try to antagonise into throwing a punch so they can laugh as they get the blame.

@Liverbird77

Former secondary teacher here. I will be telling my children that they should never, ever initiate any physical violence but that they should absolutely defend themselves if necessary.

I hope you also tell them exactly what ‘defending themselves’ means. And that verbally provoking someone into thumping you so that you can ‘defend yourself’ and thump them back claiming self defence is unacceptable?

Your child's karate teacher is an arsehole. I'm a brown belt and the first thing we are told is not to use karate outside the dojo unless totally necessary.

I also think a lot of parents do not know what bullying is. It's not a one off incident, it's purposely targeting the same person over a prolonged period.

I agree. It's also (if it occurs) the last stage of a campaign to undermine self confidence and self esteem where the victim is less likely to 'tell' or fight back. As a parent you want to catch it way before this point. Bullies tend to understand psychological manipulation very well and can easily taunt your child into a fight if that's what you want.

I’ve told all my kids of they hit first I cannot defend them to school but of they get hit I will defend their choice to hit back and if they do make sure it’s hard!

@Soontobe60 yeah. I doubt they'd be doing that. I've no evidence that they are bullies. I tell them to stand up for themselves, and others actually.

If anyone is wondering why schools have banned most games with physical contact at play this thread is why.

Because any shove or tag or touch or accident or escalation can be interpreted as an attack and the kid must "defend" themselves and hit back hard.

@GoodbyeKat

I’ve told all my kids of they hit first I cannot defend them to school but of they get hit I will defend their choice to hit back and if they do make sure it’s hard!

Are you serious? I really despair. Self defense and "hitting back hard" are two totally different things.