Interested in teachers' views... Any teachers here?

[cassiekmx]

My DS started primary school last year and I enrolled him in a local karate club around the same time.
He's a mixed race child living in a predominately white area (small village). There's already been a racist incident at school, but school dealt with it brilliantly. Can't fault them.
Anyway, I bring up my son to defend himself, not to cower away from bullies (not being bullied and never has, just want to pre-empt).
That's why I send him to karate (which he really enjoys).
Meanwhile, he keeps saying kids at his school are not allowed to hit
back (in self-defence). Just to be clear, I'd never condone him being an aggressor but I've always told him if someone hits him first then he must hit back and that I'd tell the school teachers exactly this and explain that he learns karate precisely for self-defence.
Karate instructor told me that his teenage son (a black belt) was set upon by 5 boys from his school and fought off every single one of them, some got broken teeth etc but the school STILL blamed him. For defending himself against 5 bullies! This father told the school they're talking rubbish and that he'll defend his son's right to stand up to bullies.
I couldn't agree more but get frustrated when my son say things like "we're not allowed to hit back" or "we just have to tell a teacher.". IMO, bullies NEED to be hit back.
So if you're not "allowed" to hit back in the event of bullying, you cower from them or simply allow them to do what they want? Struggling to see any logic in this!
Do ALL teachers believe the best thing is not to hit back??

If the second child hits back they would both be in trouble as both would be in the wrong (I am a TA).

If I'm on duty, in the playground, and I turn around and see a child hitting another child, they will be in trouble.
I will find out what happened. There will be consequences for anyone who acts in a violent way. If both children were violent, both children have to get in trouble. It's the only way to make all the other children feel safe.
We have to teach them to find an adult and tell, otherwise everyone would be hitting everyone.
Self defence can sometimes mean legging it and finding someone in authority. Sadly, I have, as an adult, been beaten up on 2 separate nights out. I have also, a long time ago, witnessed other fights in town. Every time, the only thing that stopped the fight, conclusively, was the police turning up or someone getting away. If both parties have decided to defend themselves by punching each other it just goes on and on.

Jesus wept.
This thread... wtf!?

Children don’t understand this subtle difference - and neither do their parents!
This! (Thanks, Soon.)

I'm a primary school teacher. There is always an adult around; running away is always an option. I tell all my pupils that adults are 'base'; any trouble, hot-foot it over to an adult who will be able to mediate and sort things out. We can't teach kids that vigilante justice is the done thing. The amount of time I spend dealing with the aftermath of undermining nonsense like "I tell my kid he is allowed to hit back!" is staggering. And the kids who are given this message by their parents always seem to be the ones who turn up in scraps.

Luckily, my current upper KS2 pupils are smarter than that. They know violence; ours is a deprived inner city catchment, with a high prevalence of knife crime, street fighting, intimidation and firearms. So my pupils value peace. Some of my most streetwise 11 year olds could argue the pants off parents like the OP, making the case for de-escalation, peaceful conflict resolution and being the bigger person, because their lived experience is that "hitting back" just perpetuates more of the same.
Do better, OP!

Primary teacher here.

1. Every child I've ever known who did a martial art outside school had had it drilled into them that they must never use it in the playground.
2. As other posters have said, "self defence" nearly always goes wrong in the playground.

I once saw an incident. DC1 leaning on a wall, chatting to friends. One leg sticking out. DC2 comes running past, very fast, not looking, trips over DC1's leg, goes splat. DC2 gets up, furious, convinced DC1 tripped him up on purpose (he didn't ). DC2 grabs DC1, throws him against wall very hard. DC1 suffers broken arm. DC2 tries to plead self defence. Fails.

If you’ve ever looked after 100+ children in a confined space on a playground, it will become immediately apparent why hitting back is terrible advice.

It escalates things, increases the amount of violence on the playground, and it sucks up all the lesson time too. It forces teachers to abandon their next lesson to sort out why the children were scrapping and punching each other instead of quickly walking away and getting an adult.

Sorting out all the “he did it first” claims is draining. It makes everything worse when they’ve resorted to violence too.

@ldontWanna

If anyone is wondering why schools have banned most games with physical contact at play this thread is why.

Because any shove or tag or touch or accident or escalation can be interpreted as an attack and the kid must "defend" themselves and hit back hard.

Fully agree with this. They complain he tigged too hard so you say tig lighter - I tigged him and he's cheating but I didn't feel it. I've seen children playing and accidentally hit another child and the child then thump them as they 'were hit'. They are very young children playing, often oblivious of what is going on around them until they catch another child and then get hit for it. Then parents are cross as there is always fighting and the teachers do nothing. It's beyond frustrating.

In the first few years of primary school there is a lot of physical play, some of which can get a bit rough at times. Tag, chase, off ground touch etc. It's not always easy for them at this age to differentiate between different forms of rough play and aggression. You don't want your son to get a reputation as someone who will whack another kid at the slightest perceived provocation. That reputation will follow him around and his friendships will suffer. My son is 6 and knows which kids to avoid because they are too quick to retaliate with violence when a game goes over the top.

Sorry but your tactic causes situations to escalate massively and will result in your child getting in trouble and more likely to be hurt. Hitting is not allowed. If your child is hit in school the correct thing to do is inform an adult who will deal with the hitter appropriately. If your child then hits back they are both in trouble and it's barely relevant 'who started it'. Karate is a hobby and should be used in this way. Yes of course in a dangerous situation where real harm is possible (a group of large teenage boys on one) but talking a 5/6 year old they must hit back is ridiculous imo and likely to just make him happy with his hands for the slightest hard tig and it to become the norm. Making a hard job harder for the staff. Parents that support their dc in this make it even harder

I don't get why so many parents think it will be one and done. If your child hits back the odds are that the other child will do as well and then you have a full blown fight on your hands. Are you really that reckless to not consider the consequences of that? What if the other kid is bigger,stronger,also knows karate and is better at it etc? What if other kids get involved? What if they throw the wrong punch or shove and the other kids lands badly and seriously injures themselves or dies? What if your kid does?

What if the other kid is bigger,stronger,also knows karate and is better at it etc?

Or if he isn't and ends up badly hurt by your dc when all he did was trip when going to tig so it felt a bit like a hit.

@busyeatingbiscuits

From the school's point of view, you can't have any ambiguity in the message.

School rule is - NO VIOLENCE. No hitting, no kicking, regardless of circumstances. Speak to a teacher.

If the school starts telling children that they are allowed to hit, in some circumstances... then some children will use that or interpret that in all kinds of ways.

This!

As a TA I agree there is no room for "but he started it..."

I have children who were both black belts in karate and the first rule is always walk away from a fight. You never use it outside of the dojo unless your life is in danger and I would say in primary that it unlikely.

I volunteer in a primary, there are always adults around, there have to be. They have the option to walk or run away and then the child who hits is the one who is punished. Shoving, grabbing are usual in a playground, we teach reception to children to say if they are not enjoying a "game" because there is a developmental stage that children go through where they start to understand the feelings of others, ie if I am happy swinging John round by his coat hood why is John crying?

Secondary school is a whole other kettle of fish, children are making a conscious decision to be aggressive. My child was attacked in secondary but managed to just defend himself which then made the attack worse because the bully was humiliated in front of everyone and my son kept blocking attacks. Usually a fight ends up with both children in isolation but my son wasn't because he was cornered and didn't engage.

We teach children that violence is never right. Some children witness violent behaviour in their home and bring that into school as they see it as a way to resolve issues. In school we desperately try to make children see that there are other ways to communicate displeasure.

That’s some fixation on violence!

So, meanwhile in the real world, walking away has never been a more important skill.

As a former teacher, I can tell you that most (not all) 'fights' in primary school have a root in something happening before.

So for example I had a boy in one class (year 4) who would wind the other boys up all morning, sly comments and nasty remarks, then when they got out into the playground, it took about 2 seconds to escalte into a fist fight.
Once I realised that this was the cause, I punished both. Spent time talking to them about winding up, and how it was like poking a tiger. Also very clear 100% no violence ever rule with punchers. But the wind up boys mum was furious and said I must not punish her son as he hadn't hit first.

As a class we talked a lot about what you can do when someone is annoying you. These are skills that they did not have. School was in a very rough area, lots of kids had poor home support, so I figured these were life skills I could teach them, might stop them getting hurt in a pub fight as teens. So the key things were:
-you can ignore, you can just say to yourself they are being stupid and it's not worth my time responding and walk away, leave them to it.
This idea that you don't HAVE to respond, that you can choose to ignore was a huge new idea for them, and relaly challenged them. But miss, he called my mum a slag - and I would reply - is that true? NO! So the kid is lying, so ignore it, what does it matter what they think?

• you can get help, from an adult, or by going and joining another group of kids (safety in numbers)
• you can respond in words - I don't like what you are saying, you need to stop.
• you can punch them, and then you both get into trouble and I have to tell your mum/send you to head etc etc.

It is all about choices.
I don't think teaching your kid to hit back is helpful. The karate should be saved for an incident where there are no options, if he is attacked in the street, then use whatever he needs to be safe, but in a classroom where he is with those kids each day, he needs to learn the other skills.

I've always told him if someone hits him first then he must hit back

I think if you told him you would absolutely support him and understand if he did hit back, that would have been much better wording than telling him he has to.

Other than that, right or wrong I agree with you. This bullshit "not allowed to hit back" just enables bullies and lets kids who are absolute rule followers to be targets.
I was bullied for years. Then one day someone physically started a fight with me, I whacked her back a good few times and was never bullied again. It is sometimes the solution.
It just makes it way easier for schools if they aren't allowed to hit back. Not for the kids.

@MerryMarigold

The issue is that if you hit back you're both in trouble because you both did something wrong. If you can get away and tell someone only the bullies get into trouble. At secondary school both kids will get isolation in the case of fighting.

I don't think fights just suddenly start. If someone pushes you or gets in your face, it gives you verbal, you can walk away and tell someone it happened. No one just punches someone without a build up. You don't need to run scared but walk away and get that bully into biiiiig trouble.

Everything in your second paragraph is total bollocks. Anyone who has been bullied would know that's total bollock!

Absolutely not ok. This is how fights start.
Your son gets hit, he hits back, he gets hit again, harder, some more children join in etc etc.

I’m shocked.

It’s never ok to hit anyone.

What are you teaching him regarding adult life? If you get hit, you might raise an arm to block your face, but that’s very different to throwing a punch back. You should try and get away, not join in a fight.

I taught a girl whose parents repeatedly told her to 'hit back'.

She lashed out at any minor thing. If someone bumped into her on the playground it would be a thump or a kick.

Eventually it escalated to anything that made her feel 'wronged'. Game not going her way? Violence. Someone saying something she didn't like? Violence. Funny look? Violence.

It was a nightmare to deal with as a teacher but I felt sorry for her. She ended up socially isolated because, understandably, children gave her a very wide birth and wanted nothing to do with her.

Ex-teacher here. 3 kids kids with a largish age gap. My eldest kids were taught never to hit back. This didn’t work out so well for my middle child who instead became very timid and scared of some of her peers….So, my youngest came home from nursery the other day and said “Jenny hit me and called me bum”. I told her next time to hit her back really hard. Yes, she’ll get told off too but the nasty kids need to learn not to fuck with her.

Unfortunately, it really depends on the setting and staff. So many of them either don’t notice or overlook violence and general bad behaviour towards others. My middle child’s experience at her school nursery especially was truly awful and I think shaped her whole school life. The eldest went to a different nursery where the staff were really on top of it all.

Teachers don’t want kids to hit back because they don’t want to have to deal with the repercussions. I say they need to deal with the root of the problem at an early age. They need to identify those bully, hit, call people names, steal other children’s toys etc and actually deal with it rather than ignoring and sweeping it under the carpet.

I tell my child to hit back. What can the school do about it? If they aren’t expelling the bully then they won’t expel my child either.

DropYourSword

“Other than that, right or wrong I agree with you. This bullshit "not allowed to hit back" just enables bullies and lets kids who are absolute rule followers to be targets.”

Sadly, I agree. The issue is schools need to be on top of bully behaviour.

@LadyPenelope68

Teacher here. There has to be a clear message, no violence, so no hitting/attacking. You tell an adult who deals with the situation. Hitting someone is not the answer, you need to be a bigger person than the bully and deal with it in the correct manner.

This is common, though in practice I know teachers who will ‘not notice’ the self defence. Also we get around if by making it a choice: -you can choose to walk away -you can choose to push back (always push- not hit) And then take the consequences- This works because at home we don’t reinforce any sanctions the school has put on ds. Ie, any punishment ends at the school gate So if he chose to push back and then tell, he might have to do a detention (and he’s have to do that politely), but we wouldn’t tell him off or be cross- it was his choice!

@MaggieMooh

I tell my child to hit back. What can the school do about it? If they aren’t expelling the bully then they won’t expel my child either.

And if the bully beats your kid up? Or smacks his head into a wall? Sure you can bring the school down, get the bully expelled and whatever, but you will still have a seriously injured kid. What then?

99% of the time a bully will back down when confronted by a victim who fights back. Bullies are cowards, they pick on those they think are weak. If you fight back they move on to an easier target.

There’s no need to hit back if there’s an adult near by - you walk away, tell them and then the other kid gets in trouble.
Obviously if you’re out playing on you’re own then it’s a different story. I definitely wouldn’t teach my child to hit back in the playground, there’s just no need.
As a teacher, in my experience, the ones who have parents advocating the ‘hit back’ idea are the ones who generally hit first or provoke first, then play the victim. You and the karate teacher don’t sound very responsible.