State or Private for Primary - Help!

[maltesers99]

I am really stuck on what to do and need some advice/experiences!

My twins have been in an lovely nursery attached to an independent school and love it. Now is the time to decide what to do next.
We applied for our state school places and feel quite underwhelmed. Our catchment school is failing and now an academy - we saw it and were not impressed. Feels like a rebrand in many ways - local reputation for the school has plummeted and whilst it isn't as bad as a failing inner city London school it is really lacking in reading/writing/maths - basically the foundations of an education.
Our other school is out of catchment but is preferred due it being smaller but unlikely to get this. Also they will not allow anyone to visit and see so I feel totally in the dark about it. Not much info online about it apart from a basic website. Old Ofsted report is good.

What to do? I love the nursery and school they attend, but the fees are almost 15k for the both of them to start with. We can afford this but the increases are out of reach at the moment. However, we are self employed and have not worked anywhere near as much as we did before we had children (and covid - no real help with childcare etc) is it unreasonable to think we could earn as we go? I intend to spend the time whilst they are at school full time to work hard and be able to pay but am concerned that should that not go as well as expected I may need to take them out as they hit Y4/5 which I would hate to do as they would be settled.

But is it worth the risk? They are quite shy kids, rely on each other and get overwhelmed sometimes in crowds of loud kids. I feel the nurturing setting is perfect for them but worried it will be too much of a stretch long term.

I will be involved as a parent anyway to support but worry that being influenced 7 hours a day by a failing school would be hard to undo.

Any advice is welcome - I am torturing myself!

@maltesers99

I am really stuck on what to do and need some advice/experiences!

My twins have been in an lovely nursery attached to an independent school and love it. Now is the time to decide what to do next.
We applied for our state school places and feel quite underwhelmed. Our catchment school is failing and now an academy - we saw it and were not impressed. Feels like a rebrand in many ways - local reputation for the school has plummeted and whilst it isn't as bad as a failing inner city London school it is really lacking in reading/writing/maths - basically the foundations of an education.
Our other school is out of catchment but is preferred due it being smaller but unlikely to get this. Also they will not allow anyone to visit and see so I feel totally in the dark about it. Not much info online about it apart from a basic website. Old Ofsted report is good.

What to do? I love the nursery and school they attend, but the fees are almost 15k for the both of them to start with. We can afford this but the increases are out of reach at the moment. However, we are self employed and have not worked anywhere near as much as we did before we had children (and covid - no real help with childcare etc) is it unreasonable to think we could earn as we go? I intend to spend the time whilst they are at school full time to work hard and be able to pay but am concerned that should that not go as well as expected I may need to take them out as they hit Y4/5 which I would hate to do as they would be settled.

But is it worth the risk? They are quite shy kids, rely on each other and get overwhelmed sometimes in crowds of loud kids. I feel the nurturing setting is perfect for them but worried it will be too much of a stretch long term.

I will be involved as a parent anyway to support but worry that being influenced 7 hours a day by a failing school would be hard to undo.

Any advice is welcome - I am torturing myself!

Depends where you live to be honest.

I noticed you said 'and whilst it isn't as bad as a failing inner city London school' which seems to suggest you're outside of London - as many schools in inner city London are outstanding these days.

This would also suggest you're outside all the top schools in London and your choices are your local ones.

I only say this as many parents in London face a very different situation to say a parent who lives in a sleepy part of Bucks.

If you're going to go into debt to send them to a middle of the road' prep school, it certainly isn't worth it. How good is the school they are attending now? Do they offer bursary for those earning below a certain threshold?

If the school they currently attend isn't the best independent school in your area, what is? Have you applied already?

Private = Good, State= Bad doesn't really equate, they're are some brilliant academic selective private schools that are very difficult to enter, some non-selective ones that are great, but aside from facilities, may not be worth going into debt for.

It sounds like you are only considering private due to the choice ( lack of) of state. A third way may be a grammar school, keeping them in primary state and using the money you save to tutor and plan their entry for 11+

We were in a similar situation and opted to stay at the private school. It’s impossible to say how DD would have done if we’d gone with the state school instead but I do know that she’s happy, confident and making great progress so I feel we made the right decision. Affordability is wasn’t an issue though so that helped convince us to stay with what we knew rather than take a risk on the state.

15k for both of them though, are you sure that’s right? 5k per child per term so 15k each a year is the norm around here.

Not sure what you mean by a failing inner London school…

Anyhow, as a private school parent I’d warn against sending them private if you can’t really afford it. Would it potentially be cheaper to move into the catchment of better schools?

If not then just be prepared to supplement their learning but you may be surprised by your local school as it can take a while for local gossip to catch up with reality

You will hear a lot of different opinions, but the reality is there isn’t a right answer. It depends on your family priorities, your kids personalities, your financial situation, and the opinions available.

I recently switched my reception year twins from an ‘outstanding’ state to a small nonslective prep (attached to a well regarded secondary). They weren’t miserable, but I wasn’t happy with how focused the state school was on ‘results’ at reception to the extent it crowded out all the other fun stuff. The private school explicitly doesn’t test, and offers a more holistic approach. I am American, and for this country have a slightly weird attitude towards early education 😀. It isn’t that I think they will have better results at the end of school vs what they would have had at state, but I do think they will have a more joyful educational experience. I know that would make many roll their eyes, it for me it is really important

We also carefully considered impact on family, both logistically and financially. We are fortunate enough to have contingency plans if incomes drop, and while it is a stretch, it will not put us into debt.

Fwiw, I do think it is totally possible to change back to state in later years. In my area there is a lot of remixing anyways due to the way catchments work. We struggled a lot with the 13 year commitment, but it is impossible to know what your kids will need or your financial situation will be that far in advance. I see it as a 5 year commitment, which I can reasonably plan around.

Best of luck with your decision-making!

A few ideas:

1. Keep them in the private school attached to their nursery until July 2024, so that they get the very basics of English and Maths well established. You should then be in a better place to decide whether you

a) can afford to keep them at the private school - without all the other areas of your lives suffering, especially leisure times for both the adults and the children.
or
b) prefer to not be struggling financially as a family, so then send them to a state school before they get too entrenched at the private school. You could then maybe afford a private tuture once or twice a week to help them with any of the very important subjects, that you think they may be stuggling with.

1. Send them straight to the state school, but keep an eye on both their academic and social developement (their social developement at the state school might even be better or more useful than how they might develope at the private school), and if you feel that they are not progressing well enough in any of the academic areas, you could hopefully afford extra tutoring for that as you won't be paying private school fees.

1. As pp's have suggested, could you contemplate moving to the catchment area of somewhere that has both good primary and secondary school education? However, if you decide to do that, please remember that any school's reputation and results can change, and very quickly, so maybe don't relocate only because of the schools.

I, like a pp American living over here said, believe that above all else our children's school days should be mainly very happy. In my mind a happy child finds it easier to study, and will be much more likely to become a happy and well rounded adult.
I hated school.

So many great responses. Thanks, it's lovely to hear other's opinions, i've been really struggling to decide.

By 'failing inner London school' - I just mean particularly bad, as in violent etc. I know that is a stereotype, but I am not in London and the perception (and some truth) is that some of those schools are particularly rough.

@eca80 my thoughts also - i want them to have a joyful experience also and I am unsure as to whether my catchment school will be that. I'm pretty sure it won't especially after a lovely nursery setting which is attached to the prep school. I want them to learn the basics and have a good foundation rather than work solely to SATs etc and have more of a rounded experience. It seems from what I have read online, that once children are at the base level, the focus of teachers is on the children who are struggling so those that want to read or do more are bored. Conversely if my kids do struggle, would they cope ok in the larger classroom environment of 30 kids and 2 form intakes...

@TurkeyRoastvBubbleandSqueek I am considering keeping them there for a year and seeing how it goes both with them and financially. If they then had to move to state it wouldn't be too difficult - at least not as hard for them as it would be if they went this year as they would only just be 4 years old. Maybe 1 year at least would be of huge benefit.

@LakeShoreD it is 15k per year to start with for both in reception, but by year 4 it increases to over 4k per term per child, so would be 24k
This is where I would struggle unless I had established a much greater income, but then I have several years to do so...

The other worry I have is that I won't have tried the state school.. am I making a mistake in not at least giving it a go?

There are no grammar schools nearby so it would be either stay on or move to the state secondary school at 11...

I’d be mindful of assuming you could get two places at (the same) state school in the future, especially with infant class size regs.

We toyed with a private school attached nursery (year before reception) and explicitly decided against it due to not wanting to feel too attached to the private school life from the get go.

As it happens, Covid changed our workplaces so it wasn’t as handy as we’d thought to go there after all. We moved to an area with great state schools and now plan for state until at least 11.

It’s a tough call, as you sound unhappy with the state options but starting at private and dropping back to state if circumstances dictate is much worse than being in state from the start in my mind.

@maltesers99 you have no idea what you are talking about regarding London. Inner London state schools on average outperform the rest of the country and the top performing primary school in the Uk is an inner London state school with a very high number of poor immigrant children.

I’m not aware of any primary school anywhere that is “violent” so it’s very peculiar thing to say.

The stereotypes you are casually throwing around are very misinformed…

Regarding your post, you might be better waiting for the 7+ entry if there is one and trying at that stage when they are entering Year 3. You’ll have a chance to save up and also better visibility on your finances and the quality of the state school to make a more informed decision.

Unless there is a specific issue with your kids or the school, Reception to Year 2 (KS1) is fairly gentle and you should be able to easily support their academic progress should you need to.

If you choose to move them at the end of reception where are you moving them to? As a previous poster said, you’re not getting 2 places at an oversubscribed school in year 1.

If you need to pull them out in year 4 then you cannot afford it, and you will be £60k down on where you would be.

So I would forget private. If you can’t afford it you can’t afford it. Look at your state options.

@RachelSq

I’d be mindful of assuming you could get two places at (the same) state school in the future, especially with infant class size regs.

We toyed with a private school attached nursery (year before reception) and explicitly decided against it due to not wanting to feel too attached to the private school life from the get go.

As it happens, Covid changed our workplaces so it wasn’t as handy as we’d thought to go there after all. We moved to an area with great state schools and now plan for state until at least 11.

It’s a tough call, as you sound unhappy with the state options but starting at private and dropping back to state if circumstances dictate is much worse than being in state from the start in my mind.

Just an fyi, Twins are counted as one child for admissions- there was only one place open at the original state school(not our catchment), but both girls were placed

If you can't afford it long term and will be paying purely out of earned income go state. Moving later could prove a headache and you really need a buffer of savings for any emergencies.

Maybe try applying for the ofsted good school just to see if you can get it? Perhaps they might allow visits soon.

It is a really tough decision and I really feel for you.
Personally I’m looking at private options for my dc for reasons similar to yours.
Is moving an option?
If you put them in the academy and it wasn’t working out well, how easy would it be to move your twins back to the prep?

Probably not what you want to hear, but there's a reason everyone moves out of London to a commutable leafy suburb London when their children hit school age.

@mellicauli the OP doesn't live in London...

Just an fyi, Twins are counted as one child for admissions- there was only one place open at the original state school(not our catchment), but both girls were placed

Thats actually incorrect, it depends on the school. Some schools have a "multiples policy" i.e. if one twin is offered a place, even if they don't have another place to offer, they will go over their PAN to give the other twin a place, but some schools don't have such a policy. Its not compulsory (as far as I know).

@maltesers99 In your situation I would start with state school and see how it goes. It's easier to move to private later if your finances allow than to start and be forced to leave. As others have said school places will be more difficult to come by after reception so you might be left with some very unattractive options if you need to move in Year 4 if things don't work out as you hope financially.

@LondonGirl83 maybe 'violent' is the wrong word, but loud, chaotic, overcrowded. I know several teachers in London at primary school and most are fine, 1 even outstanding (that I personally know through them) but have also heard lots of horror stories. The same with many overcrowded city schools in the UK generally. More so for secondary of course.
@PotteringAlong I hear what you are saying. I suppose I would be 60k down but then my kids would have hopefully a really good start to their education - would that be worth it? I know the Early Years is play based and so on, but it also provides them with the skills to read, write, focus etc and maybe a smaller setting is worth the cost?

@LIZS
It would be out of earned income if I can manage it, as although I have a savings buffer and some investments I would prefer to not tap into those if possible. I want to build on those if possible. That's why I am torn as I would like to see into the future to see if I am earning more once they are at school. I haven't been able to work much for the last 3 years so once they are at school, it would free up a lot of time. But it's impossible to predict...

@Usernameoflotsofnumbers
I have applied for that school as number 1 and we shall see. But also thinking of putting my name down officially for the school they are at to ensure a place. As we are in nursery we get a reserved place for a short time but that will be over soon. Moving isn't really an option, it isn't really worth it as we are settled here near family and as we are self employed would struggle (as it stands currently) to get a larger mortgage to pay for it. Also, schools can change within a few years it seems... uprooting and moving wouldn't necessarily make sense. The issue is housebuilding, there are so many new homes built all the time that catchments change a lot - where I am I feel like there is a real lacking in primary and secondary choices compared to some areas of the UK.

I went to private school for secondary and it was the best decision - I really thrived in a smaller, academic environment where it was 'cool' to be achieving and hard working. Having been in the state secondary for a short time I really hated it, and you can't compare it. I always thought I would go for state primary then private secondary and I can plan for that. But now that I am faced with state primaries near me I find it difficult to imagine sending my kids there as I am not sure they will manage, especially being summerborn.

@mellicauli

Probably not what you want to hear, but there's a reason everyone moves out of London to a commutable leafy suburb London when their children hit school age.

'Everyone?'

From Hackney, to East Dulwich, Clapham to Battersea, all over inner London middle classed parents save on prep fees and send their kids to amazing state primaries. The main reason we eventually do leave is the same reason my wife and I left, we can trade our trendy inner London flat in Dalston for a whole house in somewhere like Bromley.

Many of my more wealthy friends never leave inner London at all.. what most suburbanites fail to realise is inner London includes Fulham, Notting Hill, Islington , Camden which has some of the wealthiest people in the country sending their kids to local primaries, it all falls away after 11+ mostly because the best schools in the country are in London, St Pauls, Kings, Westminster, City, Highgate, Jags, Lady E,

London bashing is so boring and as the great Johnson ( Sam not Boris ) When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life, for there is in London all that life can afford.

@SouthLondonMommy really good point which I hadn't considered. If they didn't get a place at my number 1 (my almost catchment school) I am way more likely to pay for prep I suppose.

But if I did get my number 1 choice then maybe I should take it as I would hate to be allocated somewhere else. My actual catchment school is the failed-now academy (but same thing if you ask me, different head) which i am not keen on.

@DaddyPhD I'm not in London but the parents and teachers that live there (that i personally know) all say that the good schools are SO oversubscribed and the best ones are very hard to get into. CofE require proof of church attendance and so on. I know many do in the UK but is harder to get into an outstanding primary in many parts of London.
Save on prep fees yes, but I would think if you live near an amazing state primary in London it will cost in terms of housing.

@maltesers99 good schools come with a housing premium in London (like elsewhere in the country). However, there are a lot of outstanding state primaries in London. London state primaries dominate the academic league tables (circa 40% of the to 50) including quite a number in less affluent areas which sit at the very top.

Anyhow, I'd recommend you give your catchment school a chance to turn things around under the new leadership if that's all you get.

Honestly, you might find its okay or if its not, you can spend a few years saving up and do pre-prep from year 3-6 when its more valuable. The reality is you can't afford it so its a very big gamble to start private reception.

OP your prejudice is really apparent. I cannot swing a cat without hitting multiple outstanding (and one good) schools so I struggle to imagine where all “your friends” live.

Anyway that’s irrelevant.

We do send ours private but there is no way I would do that if I had to go into debt or worried that I couldn’t afford it in the long term. Stability is more important than private education.

You sound to be in a not totally dissimilar position to where we started (albeit with 2 singletons not twins). Essentially took a deep breath and went down the private route, with some savings invested that we didn't really want to use on school fees, and my own income uncertain for a few years, crossing our fingers rather than planning properly past the first few years.

We only got away with it because they both ended up on chorister bursaries (one very generous, one rather less so and had to board), then for senior school they have been on a combination of scholarships and bursaries. As it turned out, my own career didn't go where I'd expected at all, and my husband's salary has increased below inflation. Those early invested savings have contributed significantly to what we've been able to pay; but the nature of the schools and opportunities they've paid for have meant we haven't begrudged it. My husband felt it hard when our eldest's boarding bursary was confirmed - it hit his sense of "responsibility for providing" in a way that merit-based awards didn't. Coming towards the end of it we don't regret it at all - but the school does have to be the right one for the child for it to be worth it.

I think you're right to consider taking places in your number 1 school if you get them, especially if you are then able to look round further before starting. Paying/ maintaining a deposit for the private school place may be worth considering though watch the timings for commitments to first term fees etc. It could even be worth having a discussion with the school bursar to find out what they are able to offer to older children (eg will they offer means tested bursaries only from yr 7, or sometimes from yr 5 or earlier).

If you do decide to leave them where they are for reception, the early years funding continues until compulsory school age ie the term after they turn 5. So with summer-borns you would actually have this continue throughout reception. (I don't think the system has changed; we got one term of funding with our eldest but unfortunately son's school, not having a nursery, wasn't set up to use it though later they realised how significant a contribution it was and did register).

Good luck, I hope whatever happens works well for you over the next few years!

[quote maltesers99]@DaddyPhD I'm not in London but the parents and teachers that live there (that i personally know) all say that the good schools are SO oversubscribed and the best ones are very hard to get into. CofE require proof of church attendance and so on. I know many do in the UK but is harder to get into an outstanding primary in many parts of London.
Save on prep fees yes, but I would think if you live near an amazing state primary in London it will cost in terms of housing.[/quote]
That's true enough.

I would enquire about bursary though @maltesers99 at the local prep, long shot as most don't help till Year 3 at best, if at all.

Long term, it's worth remembering a state primary applicant for private senior school is viewed differently than a child coming from Prep, so you won't be spoiling your chances by sending them to state primary and getting some tutoring for 11+. Given your circumstances, that seems the most sensible and it's a well trodden path by many parents. An active parent and tutor can counterbalance most of the negative aspect of a state primary like large classes, etc.

It was our plan for our DD, if she didn't get into a few very select preps we applied for, which we thought was 'worth' finding the money.

I appreciate where you live hasn't got lots and lots of choice.

Personally, and its controversial what I'm about to say, I'd keep them in prep and do or die- see it as a financial emergency to earn cash for fees. Really downsize and look at income generation, remortgaging , etc. I just read what you were saying about your own personal experiences of schooling- You can rebuild yourself financially, but you only have one shot with your kids early education.

It might be an idea to contact good schools guide, for a couple of hundred quid they do a consultation meeting - might help to get a professional overview of all your options

www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/education-consultants/services/consultation-meeting-370

@HalfSiblingsMadeContact thanks - I will contact the bursar and ask if they do continue with the funding until age 5 - unsure of how much that would knock off the fees but would be great if so.
Can't predict at this age if they would get a scholarship or bursary later on, in the senior school they are hotly contested I think and prep school are even more limited.
Good to hear it worked out for you!