State or Private for Primary - Help!

[maltesers99]

I am really stuck on what to do and need some advice/experiences!

My twins have been in an lovely nursery attached to an independent school and love it. Now is the time to decide what to do next.
We applied for our state school places and feel quite underwhelmed. Our catchment school is failing and now an academy - we saw it and were not impressed. Feels like a rebrand in many ways - local reputation for the school has plummeted and whilst it isn't as bad as a failing inner city London school it is really lacking in reading/writing/maths - basically the foundations of an education.
Our other school is out of catchment but is preferred due it being smaller but unlikely to get this. Also they will not allow anyone to visit and see so I feel totally in the dark about it. Not much info online about it apart from a basic website. Old Ofsted report is good.

What to do? I love the nursery and school they attend, but the fees are almost 15k for the both of them to start with. We can afford this but the increases are out of reach at the moment. However, we are self employed and have not worked anywhere near as much as we did before we had children (and covid - no real help with childcare etc) is it unreasonable to think we could earn as we go? I intend to spend the time whilst they are at school full time to work hard and be able to pay but am concerned that should that not go as well as expected I may need to take them out as they hit Y4/5 which I would hate to do as they would be settled.

But is it worth the risk? They are quite shy kids, rely on each other and get overwhelmed sometimes in crowds of loud kids. I feel the nurturing setting is perfect for them but worried it will be too much of a stretch long term.

I will be involved as a parent anyway to support but worry that being influenced 7 hours a day by a failing school would be hard to undo.

Any advice is welcome - I am torturing myself!

@DaddyPhD yes, I am so tempted to just jump in and roll the dice - either sink or swim. After being in the nursery and seeing the school to then viewing state options it is really difficult not to. And they are happy..I know they are only 3 lol but I have no idea if they would be moving to a bigger, louder environment.
And like you say, you only get one chance to get it right. Seems like the biggest decision to make in a long time!

@maltesers99 We have two Ds in private primary. Combined fees hit over 30k for 2021/2022. 1 school not worth it but we were stuck as that was all the eldest knows and no way could we have moved him back to State for the last few years and had to grit our teeth and begrudgingly pay. It's not all been bad but a really good state with tutoring would have been worth it. 2nd child, we sent to a selective prep (took 2 attempts to get in), and the marked difference in education is ridiculous compared to eldest. Now knowing better and having just finished 11+, I would say only do private if its top notch at the primary end. The eldest had to work 2x harder to be at a standard for the secondary schools we wanted for him, and thank God he has been selected for interviews.

Final comment, the use of word 'violence' is very prejudice, as I equated this with word with the children of the London schools you talk about but actually have no experience off and really didn't like that! London is a melting point of cultures, mix that with the unfairness of educational opportunities in some deprived areas and you get perfect able children not being able to meet their potentials. I would be very mindful when make generic statements which was heavy on biais and offensive with only hearsay knowledge. TBH it had me judging you more so!

Our DS has funding under 5 at his prep - it's about a 1k saving per term

Although our fees are about 5k per term per child so your prep fees do sound cheap

@JustTryingouthere it is a selective school that we are considering, however, I don't think at 4 years old is it the same entry requirements as joining the school at say 7 or 11. I would expect them to pass the entry exam at 11 to the senior school with no issue and would not expect to pay for tutoring. I came from a state school and sat entrance exams with absolutely no prep/tutoring so I find it interesting these days that so many parents do so.
Childhood is to be enjoyed and I would not want them to do so much extra 'official' tutoring out of school hours (especially if I pay for prep). However, I would provide them with loads of fun learning at home/extracurricular stuff as we go.

In terms of the word 'violent' - that was the wrong word. I mean badly behaved and raucous which I do have experience of personally. I think some people on here are naive and talk about it as if it's ok, and then pay for their own children to be in indie schools...
If we are all honest, none of us want our children to be influenced by bad behaviour or be exposed to certain things at a young age. By that I mean swearing, thinking school is a waste of time, messing about and not focusing and potentially much more. Close family have worked in social services and whilst I do not know any specific details, it seems there a lot of problems in schools that are not just typical naughty behaviour. I would never judge a child as it is often not their fault but their family circumstances but at the same time, I don't want my kids exposed to it either.

I agree with @JustTryingouthere. Primary private is only worth it if the school/results/feedback is top notch. I have experienced both ends and the fees was totally worth it for top notch and not worth it for an average school. If average you'll be better off going state and compensating specific areas outside school.
The worst feeling is paying for a school which you realise isn't worth it - but you are stuck because of your child/location/no other option etc.

@TeenTitan007 how did you work out it wasn't worth it specifically? Progress with schooling generally or other things?
Appreciate any insight.

Don't assume there will be no disruptive behaviour (ie. badly behaved or raucous) or bullying in an independent school. We found the school were conveniently blind and deaf if the perpetrator was bright or from an established popular family. It may screen out some children with difficult behaviour or SEN and socially deprived but some behaviours exist across the social divide for other reasons.

I firmly believe that paying for education gets more valuable the older they are. So I wouldn’t pay fir pre prep or prep, but would instead save for gcse/a levels at a private school.

I teach in a top private school and after about a term you couldn’t tell which y7s came from state or private primary.

We aren't going to pay private for nursery, but will get a tutor for KS2. Secondary we feel is more valuable to pay for so will explore that route for that phase of education.

We have chosen to pay for private prep and we are happy with the decision, although that comes from a financially secure situation. I think the education gap has widened during post-Covid times, not just because of different response to lockdown learning but also preschool children being less socialised and having fewer opportunities for activities - personally I think it's something that will affect this whole generation.

I think that if we weren't sure about being able to fund it all the way through, it would have made more sense to move to the catchment of an outstanding state primary (of which there are many, where we are in London). It might cost a significant premium to move into the tiny catchments, but in a way it is retained in the equity of your property, and you have the option to release those funds by moving when the dc are older, whereas the money paid out for private education has been spent.

Be aware that term dates in private schools are often shorter than state schools (my dc's school is off for almost two months in summer) so holiday childcare costs can be significantly more.

Do you only have the choice between 2 state schools? I've just applied for my daughter and we visited 8 and based on previous years we would definitely get into 5 of them. It sounds like you much prefer the private though so if it's affordable I would go with that, you have a few years to save/increase earnings.

Just as an aside - I've worked in secondary schools in London and the average ones are far better than the average ones outside of London. I think it's a common misconception that state schools in London are bad, they have had a lot of funding and resources pumped into them and attract amazing teachers.

@lostships

We have chosen to pay for private prep and we are happy with the decision, although that comes from a financially secure situation. I think the education gap has widened during post-Covid times, not just because of different response to lockdown learning but also preschool children being less socialised and having fewer opportunities for activities - personally I think it's something that will affect this whole generation.

I think that if we weren't sure about being able to fund it all the way through, it would have made more sense to move to the catchment of an outstanding state primary (of which there are many, where we are in London). It might cost a significant premium to move into the tiny catchments, but in a way it is retained in the equity of your property, and you have the option to release those funds by moving when the dc are older, whereas the money paid out for private education has been spent.

Be aware that term dates in private schools are often shorter than state schools (my dc's school is off for almost two months in summer) so holiday childcare costs can be significantly more.

We essentially did your non-private option and moved to secure a state school place instead of going private.

Our new house (good catchment/area) cost more than double than our old one (bad catchment/area) for a very similar property but we’re hopeful this value will be long term.

The current school is at the very best end of primaries and I love it.

The private option had all the usual positives but on weighing it up we didn’t want to go in for private primary (c£100k in total) when we were happy with the state options we could move near. We’ll reevaluate in time for secondary as that is a different ball game entirely!

@scandikate where I am I have a chance of 2 schools, only 1 is in my catchment (a third which I did put down is a definite no but is a nice school). There are other schools but with zero chance of getting in due to catchments. If I was in London I would most likely have more choice as there are far more schools in every borough it seems.
@lostships
moving seems easy on paper but in reality would not happen before reception start anyway. It is a consideration in the future. I agree about the education gap widening due to Covid/lockdown learning. That had a huge impact on secondary education but I presume also reception/early years who would have missed such a crucial start to their learning. Hopefully that won't happen again...

@maltesers99 you are coming across quite ignorant.

Social services of course sees terrible things throughout the UK. There are failing schools right on your own doorstep. I’m not sure why you think London state primary schools on average are any worse than anywhere else. It’s an indisputable fact they are academically stronger on average than anywhere else in the UK across the social strata.

My kid got into a very academically selective through school. If she hadn’t, she would be going to the outstanding state school where we live where many of her friends attend whose parents earn the same or more than we do. Private isn’t always better. It depends on which state schools you have and which indie schools you can gain admission to. There are plenty local indie preps I wouldn’t pay for.

Also, take a look at Everyone Invited. Being rich and at private school is no guarantee of good behaviour…

Parental support is the most important thing. Much of what private schools offer can be more affordably replicated outside of school through extracurricular activities and parental support with academics as needed.

Only a private school with a real value-add in my view is worth paying for unless your state options are truly below average / failing.

Agree your prep fees are very, very low (ours are more than double that) and on that basis, they sound manageable out of taxed income for you, for now. However, have you done forecasts based on fee hikes for higher years, as well as the 4/5% inevitable annual increase? Personally, although we do pay for 2 lots of prep fees from income, I wouldn't have embarked on it without several years of buffer in savings/ investments / disposable assets as a safety net.
Yr 4/5 wouldn't be a great time to switch systems in my view. Better to do state now instead of pre-prep and then kick off private prep from Yr 3 if you think that is a real possibility.

I would also question why the fees are so low ... does that affect class sizes / wider offering / quality or quantity of staff? If so I wonder if you'd better off looking at the state options.

Personally I'd go for the best state school option you have, even if it's a little further out etc. I'd prioritise working a little less to then be able to give the kids parental time, to stretch them, and use time and money for their extra curricular interests and tutoring if required.

You do know you don't have to be a qualified teacher to work at a private school?

@Legoninjago1
the fees rise to over 30k for both in senior school.. they seem to be about average around here. Class size is small under 20.
@HeyMoana the teachers are highly qualified and have experience - often experts in their subjects once the kids are 7+. I am not sure any school would not employ a 'qualified' teacher, especially a private school. But, then again, if that person was an expert in a field without QTS or whatever, maybe that would still be the right fit.
Worth noting that apparently an academy can also employ teachers without QTS and many state schools are academies now...

@CurtainTroubles yeah that is my concern - we can't easily predict our earnings as self employed and it is a big risk. Especially after them being settled for quite a few years by then.
Finding it hard to imagine leaving as it stands but would be infinitely harder then. My head says try state school and my heart says stay where we are...
I feel motivated to put all my energy into it but I do have to be realistic and know that it is not always easy to run fast all the time.

I know the Early Years is play based and so on, but it also provides them with the skills to read, write, focus etc and maybe a smaller setting is worth the cost?

I would say no. Save your money for the years that really count academically.

If you take a few years out of private you could look to move back at 7 or 11 or any number if points where there will be a fairly large intake and your kids wont feel like the new kids.

Don't tie up all your money in early years school fees and not have anything left for family life. It will give you a whole load of stress for years.

But I appreciate that's easy for me to say, once you're in a good school it's hard to leave.

And just be mindfulness your impressions of state schools. The majority of kids in this country go to them and manage just fine. Many do really well in fact.

London schools are statistically some of the best in the country and not all of us leave for ‘leafy suburbs’ or go private.

Op, you should go with the private option. You’ve done so much thinking and research that there’s no way you’d be satisfied with your local state schools. Every minor fault would be highlighted and you’d keep thinking ‘I knew we should have gone private!’.

@maltesers99 as others have said. Best to skip until Year 3, keep on top of what is happening, and work with your children. No school, fee paying or not is perfect. Someone already said it, 'Parent involvement is paramount'. I know many parents who pay, and sit back and think the school will do it all (no school can). Behaviour is Behaviour and does not have a price attached to it. Shocking behaviour goes on in private, as people are people, but its behind closed doors. Be open minded and flexible during the educational journey, and all should be well.

^In terms of the word 'violent' - that was the wrong word. I mean badly behaved and raucous which I do have experience of personally. I think some people on here are naive and talk about it as if it's ok, and then pay for their own children to be in indie schools... ^
OP clearly this comment is aimed at me. I think you have unrealistic views on private school and are incredibly naïve if you think this.

OP clearly this comment is aimed at me. I think you have unrealistic views on private school and are incredibly niave.

Anyhoo good luck and I hope you come to a solution but I really think you should open your mind up to all possibilities.