State or Private for Primary - Help!

[maltesers99]

I am really stuck on what to do and need some advice/experiences!

My twins have been in an lovely nursery attached to an independent school and love it. Now is the time to decide what to do next.
We applied for our state school places and feel quite underwhelmed. Our catchment school is failing and now an academy - we saw it and were not impressed. Feels like a rebrand in many ways - local reputation for the school has plummeted and whilst it isn't as bad as a failing inner city London school it is really lacking in reading/writing/maths - basically the foundations of an education.
Our other school is out of catchment but is preferred due it being smaller but unlikely to get this. Also they will not allow anyone to visit and see so I feel totally in the dark about it. Not much info online about it apart from a basic website. Old Ofsted report is good.

What to do? I love the nursery and school they attend, but the fees are almost 15k for the both of them to start with. We can afford this but the increases are out of reach at the moment. However, we are self employed and have not worked anywhere near as much as we did before we had children (and covid - no real help with childcare etc) is it unreasonable to think we could earn as we go? I intend to spend the time whilst they are at school full time to work hard and be able to pay but am concerned that should that not go as well as expected I may need to take them out as they hit Y4/5 which I would hate to do as they would be settled.

But is it worth the risk? They are quite shy kids, rely on each other and get overwhelmed sometimes in crowds of loud kids. I feel the nurturing setting is perfect for them but worried it will be too much of a stretch long term.

I will be involved as a parent anyway to support but worry that being influenced 7 hours a day by a failing school would be hard to undo.

Any advice is welcome - I am torturing myself!

@Username7521 it wasn't particularly barbed - it was aimed at a lot of people generally, who talk up state schools and promote how it's great and then send their own precious children to private school.
No judgement - I'm considering sending mine too.

I feel I am not naive, yes I said the London 'violent' comment, which I agree was the wrong terminology. Hey I don't care about London, I'm not in London, was just a vague reference. I don't think I am naive, I have experienced both sides of the fence myself in schooling and private school for me was far better. I don't see how it can't be unless the state school is superb, with small classes, excellent facilities and so on. That's not to say I am not considering it myself - I am on the line in terms of fees and I am really finding it difficult.

I really value everyone's input, I sort of agree with it all which makes it so hard.
I have spent the last few weeks flip flopping between both. Feeling like I have made a decision then change my mind. I've made a spreadsheet to work out the total cost (yikes) and then decide ok it's too risky. Then i pick up by DTs from their school and they love it so much and I feel myself changing my mind. But they are my only kids, so I have no idea if they will sink or swim in state primary, I have no previous experience of doing it.
I like where I live, the neighbours are great and generally a lovely community (in most of the catchment). So I am sure in many ways the school would be ok to an extent, despite it's failing Ofsted reports. But I feel torn ripping them away from something that I feel would be so perfect for them - at least now.
Thanks for all the ideas and input from all.
If anyone has done private and then went back to state can you comment! And conversely the other way too. It's sort of helping me decide (i think!)

It doesn’t sound like you can afford it. There are lots of extras especially at Prep when kids also want to do several additional activities which you may have to pay for eg karate club and music lessons. Most kids will be doing some of these and your kids will also want to do it.

Reassess your financial situation when your DC are 7 or 11 and then decide. Also the Preps near us don’t take the 15/30hours funding for 3-4 year olds so you need to check if yours does.

We pay for Prep but I’d only do it for a school which is going to add value eg help your DC get into a grammar or a certain type of private senior school. If yours is an all-through school to 18, you will find most DC stay and hardly anyone leaves, which will put a big strain on you if you run out of cash by then

Eight years ago our family friends sent their twins to state school in Kingston. Then they found out that the boy was bullied and teachers did nothing. They moved twins to a private primary in the middle of the year. Later the family moved to Isle of Wight and children went to a state school there.
Another family friends, both teachers, living in North Finchley, also sent their son to a state school but they got concerned that he did not learn anything. Maybe they expected too much at the age of 4. They also moved their son to a private primary. Later sent the daughter to a private primary too. Their son then went to a grammar school and one of the top universities. The daughter went to a state secondary as she found the grammar pace too demanding for her. They are not wealthy, they could not afford to redecorate their house for many years. The children seemed happy in the grammar and the state secondary after attending private primary.
My son was in the nursery since he was 5 month old. Basically I have been paying fees similar to private school fees for the past two years.
We are very old parents so I am a bit worried that we will not be able to maintain the income required to pay for private schools for all school years.
I know other people who sent children to average private primaries and then to grammar schools or state secondary.
I rely on experiences of our friends and also I think the primary school should set up the grounds of education, instill love of learning and teach a child to work and study in a disciplined way.
That is why I would like to send my son to a private primary to start with. I hope that if we won't be able to afford private later we might be able to get bursary or some other support or my son may get a place in a grammar school. By this time I hope he will be enjoying learning and get into habit of working hard and smart.
Btw, we do not want to send DS in a religious school and the only non-religious primary in the catchment area has mixed reputation.

Basically, what I understand is private primary is safer environment for young children. Some parents deliberately choose small schools so the child has family environment in the school. Children from private primaries seem to be more resilient and confident and adapt to state or grammar schools after attending primary private schools.

@Lily7050

Eight years ago our family friends sent their twins to state school in Kingston. Then they found out that the boy was bullied and teachers did nothing. They moved twins to a private primary in the middle of the year. Later the family moved to Isle of Wight and children went to a state school there. Another family friends, both teachers, living in North Finchley, also sent their son to a state school but they got concerned that he did not learn anything. Maybe they expected too much at the age of 4. They also moved their son to a private primary. Later sent the daughter to a private primary too. Their son then went to a grammar school and one of the top universities. The daughter went to a state secondary as she found the grammar pace too demanding for her. They are not wealthy, they could not afford to redecorate their house for many years. The children seemed happy in the grammar and the state secondary after attending private primary. My son was in the nursery since he was 5 month old. Basically I have been paying fees similar to private school fees for the past two years. We are very old parents so I am a bit worried that we will not be able to maintain the income required to pay for private schools for all school years. I know other people who sent children to average private primaries and then to grammar schools or state secondary. I rely on experiences of our friends and also I think the primary school should set up the grounds of education, instill love of learning and teach a child to work and study in a disciplined way. That is why I would like to send my son to a private primary to start with. I hope that if we won't be able to afford private later we might be able to get bursary or some other support or my son may get a place in a grammar school. By this time I hope he will be enjoying learning and get into habit of working hard and smart. Btw, we do not want to send DS in a religious school and the only non-religious primary in the catchment area has mixed reputation.

Your comment about primary being the foundation really resonates for me. I personally see going private for primary as more important than secondary, as that is where the the building blocks of education are established, and higher teacher to pupil ratios have a greater impact. Secondary is more content driven, and success relies more on the child’s abilities as well as their capacity for self-management.

Secondary education in the UK (state and private) seems to be one long exercise in test prep, where the sole metric for success is exam results. I love my private primary because they are able to provide a much broader foundation, which I am hoping will create a passion for learning that endures the exam prep years.

@Lily7050

Basically, what I understand is private primary is safer environment for young children. Some parents deliberately choose small schools so the child has family environment in the school. Children from private primaries seem to be more resilient and confident and adapt to state or grammar schools after attending primary private schools.

That's absolute nonsense I'm afraid.

The top prep schools that feed the top private schools in the country are fiercely competitive, if you make it in at 4+, there's constant pressure as they live or die by their leaver destinations into the most competitive schools in the country. These preps will interview you the parents and gladly manage your child out if they are not up to standard. You think that's a safer environment than state school??

The top prep schools will have tiger parents who are utterly ruthless in the pursuit of success, it will have parents who are dodgy 'international business men' , hedge fund managers and football stars.

Your child will have a warped view of what is normal and what is reality ( and I say this as someone whose child has a place at a 7 grand a term exclusive west London prep).

There are great state schools and great private schools, that is all. You can't make ridiculous statements based on anecdotal experiences of your limited social circle.

Also any child who goes to prep will resent not going to the same school as his mates, period. If they are shipped off alone to a good state school or grammar and most of the cohort feed into a connected private senior, they will be gutted. They'll get over it, but they'll bloody resent you.

"The top prep schools will have tiger parents who are utterly ruthless in the pursuit of success, it will have parents who are dodgy 'international business men' , hedge fund managers and football stars." - this is exactly the mixture of parents we have in our nursery , lots of children of Fulham FC players and City boys

"Your child will have a warped view of what is normal and what is reality": so what view do you think will have children who moved from average state into one of top private secondary, e.g. St Paul?

"( and I say this as someone whose child has a place at a 7 grand a term exclusive west London prep)." - if I remember correctly your child got a place by ballot in Bute house? A registrar in one of Chelsea preps told us that they got a girl who was managed out from Bute House. Otherwise, congratulations with winning the ballot.

I have not come across a mixed or boys schools in SW London that offer places by ballots so my son will be attending assessments in autumn 2022.

Put them down for private for now and look at moving outside of london catchments asap

Just FYI im not in London.
It's definitely a different attitude there about schools- very tiger like!
Where I am there are a few decent Indies with good reputations.
The school I am considering is all through, so no need to move if all good. Im leaning towards state then rejoining at 8 which should be possible. Gives me more time to make sure we can absolutely send them to senior school.
I have found out more about my state schools from current parents, many are unhappy with a lot - limited after school provision, less outdoor time, headmaster who doesn't listen etc. But I have to be realistic, i cant easily afford it and would hate to start properly then move.
I say that now and will change my mind Monday! Heart stays stay, head says state (for a while).

@maltesers99: is it not possible to move closer to a good state school?
I would imagine outside London the catchment area would be bigger, not like some schools in London, 100 yards and still no guarantee to get place because of siblings or any other reasons.
This is the best state primary www.bousfieldprimaryschool.co.uk/ close to where I live but very small catchment area. So I gave up the idea to rent for a year to get a place there.

@Lily7050

I think my post came across as rude, and arrogant and I apologise.

Where you say 'they are safer' is where I saw a red flag, and it's just my opinion, which of course is no more valid than yours.

By their nature private schools are going to attract parents from a higher socio-economic background that protects them from a lot of the sharp end of deprivation, but I do think it's unfair to view them as 'safer' than state schools , it strays into negative stereotypes that somehow the wealthier and privileged are 'better behaved' and the question is the kids are safer from what?

As someone currently participating in the private system, (My DD is at preschool attached to a local prep) I wish you were right, but abusive teachers and fellow pupils are always a danger in both state and private.

But as I said, I apologise for the tone of my earlier post, and I agree with much of your post. Good luck with your 4+ assessments, and thank you for your wishes, selection at 4+ is an in-exact science and like a ballot, luck on the day plays a big role.

@Lily7050 catchments here vary but around 1 mile or less I would say and also dependent on not just location but siblings at the school etc.
It's not really financially worth it for us to move at the moment and a big mortgage is not on the table as our income has dropped since we had the twins so unlikely to get what we would need (currently).

I think my overall decision is state with a view to move when we can. At least give it a try. I think it would be a bit ridiculous not to, given that we cannot easily make the fees long term at the present moment.

We will save and invest well and see where we are. I plan to support their learning at home and in many ways be a 'tiger' parent - in the sense that I will be ready to 'fight' in their corner if I feel there are issues in school or they are unhappy. It does make me sad as they are so happy, but I have to also think about overall family life. The pressure would probably be too much at this point.

Everyone's feedback and advice has been immensely useful and any other ideas or experiences is always most welcome.

You’ll lose a terms fees if you go from private to state as the private will want a term in advance but state schools offers them and there and don’t hold places.
For what it’s worth what I wouldn’t do is private primary to state comp. it’s a big transition anyway and you’d be making it harder.
Does the private school have sufficient numbers that your twins could be in different classes? I think I’d probably want that as the classes are so small. Whilst I’m sure the small classes are good academically I actually think it can be a disadvantage socially as there’s a small pool of children for them to make friends with

@BungleandGeorge yeah I wouldn't sign up unless I was certain I could not only pay fees now but sustain them through their schooling.
I can pay for a while but ideally don't want to pay direct from salary hence why I am thinking of state then around 7 or 8. I need to be sure that I won't have to pull them out which would be horrible for them socially and for their education. I'd rather do state then move.
The classes are small in pre-prep but I think there is a bigger pool as you move up the years but still small (but not suffocating) until senior level. I wouldn't split them for the first year or two as they would need eachother until they settled in I think.

Depends if you want them to grow up as Tories or decent human being really