Shall I try to delay DD starting school?

[ThirdElephant]

DD is a summer-born 3 year old and I've got to apply for her school place by January. What I'm not sure of is whether to put her in her normal cohort or apply to delay her a year (so she'd start reception a year later at just-turned five rather than just-turned four). They do this pretty commonly in Scotland but it's not as usual in England and can be difficult to get agreed, though it is becoming more common and the government have promised to make it a parental right to delay and to keep them with their adopted cohort (though they're taking their sweet time about it!) DD was not premature and has no SEND. Academically she is fairly able, but socially I would say she's noticeably behind the older kids in her year and she often gravitates towards those younger than her. I asked if she would like to go to big school with children X, Y and Z or stay at playgroup with children A, B and C and she said she'd prefer playgroup.

The research says that summer borns are 30% more likely to suffer depression as teens/adults than their older peers, which is a large part of the reason I am considering the delay, but the unknown of going against the tide a bit scares me.

Any words of wisdom? WWYD?

The data that exists compares spring borns to autumn borns, if summer borns all deferred the data would need to be compared to summer born from the previous year . And at what point does it stop having a negative effect, the 30th April? 1st of May? It’s far more complicated than that, children all develop differently. I agree deferring should be an option, but that is it an option. Parents are best placed to make the decision based on the system currently in place knowing their child. It’s fine to share what you did and why, it’s not fine to say I don’t know why anyone would do differently to this. It shows a lack of awareness of others situations.

I do wonder why this doesn't work in reverse. Friend has an early Sept baby. He was in nursery with my May baby as he started the term after they turned 2 (so the Jan) and mine started just before 3 (the Apr) so he actually had 1 more term of nursery at that point. Mine went up to reception at 4 years 4 months, he had to wait until 5-a few days. He was so bored for that extra year in nursery, would have treated educationally moving up with his peers like DS etc because baring SEN they'll largely learn what they're taught

I'm in Scotland and my dd1 and ds were both deferred, starting school at 5y6m. They stayed in the same cohort all the way through and left school at 18y4 m. Both have done well academically and socially and are now at art school (dd1) and about to start nursing (ds). I'm incredibly glad we did it (they are both February born. Dd2 is November and the youngest, we decided not to defer her and it was the right choice for her. But in Scotland no one starts school until four and a half, dd2 was 4y9m and seemed awfully little! She has done well too though and I don't regret it.

@Italiandreams

You seem to still be feeling defensive about my post. And still unable to separate your parental anxiety about choices you make from broader issues.

I don’t have primary aged kids. And I have not had a choice to defer. So - I don’t have a emotional attachment to the issue. So - I am giving my personal impartial opinion.

And data on things is pretty clear. For educational and psychological outcomes - summer borns shouldn’t really start school having just turned 4. It’s not beneficial to them and it creates lasting damage.

So - yes - if people have a choice - I don’t see any valid reason to NOT defer.

There are other structural and practical reasons, of course. The lack of free nursery childcare in this country sadly makes it harder for people.
But it still doesn’t change the answer to the question - should you defer if it is possible - yes. Can you - not always.

As to the tales of bored 3, 4, 5 yos at nursery and reception. Kids don’t get bored if they can play. And this is what they should be doing at such young age. Continental kids play in kindergartens until they go to school at 6yo.
And then - by the end of school UK kids aren’t ahead at all. So the extra two/three years of schooling that U.K. has is useless. It just provides for free childcare for parents.
It’d be much better for the kids to have a good system of kindergartens here.

Ok please share this data with me. I know summer borns do comparatively less well compared to autumn born, but that will always be the case if we changed the start point. I agree we start formal education too early however I do know this is school dependent, some are much better than others at using play based learning in key stage one.

My 3 year old is loving nursery and a good reception class should be an extension of this. Why would going to school in September at just turned 4 be damaging when it is just the same as this year? If she was struggling in anyway at nursery I would feel differently and might defer. I think it will do her good to move with her friends. I also think if she plays sports/ etc she will be happier participating with her friends etc

My point was it’s good that we can share our thoughts with the OP but there should be no pressure on her. She should make a decision based in her child, I give up but I’m saying you telling people that they are wrong not to defer is not helpful to helping someone make a balanced decision based on their individual child.

If you are interested in the studies then I recommend joining the "flexible admissions for summerborns" facebook group @Italiandreams as I advised the OP upthread. There are people there who have been through the process, and who have decided not to defer as well. There are many links on there to the evidence if you genuinely want to look at it.

I am a Mum of two summer borns and I work in school admissions and deal with requests from parents to defer.

One of my two would have benefited, I think from deferred entry - she is dyslexic and it wasn't picked up till she was in secondary school, we believe, because many of her struggles were put down to her being one of the young ones (long story there for another time). We moved just before she turned 4 and when we enquired about the possibility of delaying entry, we were told she'd have to go straight in to Y1 which we didn't want to do.

Our other DC was more than ready for school a few weeks after he turned 4 and flew...

It very much depends on the child. You know your child - but remember that it is about them - not about you holding on to them for another year.

From a work point of view, each year around January we have requests from parents who delayed entry and realised they made the wrong decision and their child is bored, ahead of their peers and needs more stimulation.They ask if they can move up to Y1 - but most head teachers aren't keen. We also have the parent who had delayed entry agreed and who have remained in Nursery for an extra year and they make in-year Reception applications for the same reason. Often if these parents had made a reception application at the expected time they would have got a place in their preferred school, but when the in-year is submitted it is full and they have to wait.

We are also finding now that many academies and selective schools are not accepting Y7 applications from the delayed entry children unless there was an underlying reason for the delay and evidence can be provided (ie not just 'kid is young' and parents didn't feel was ready, but the ones who are prem, had speech & language support etc).

This may change in time but the Government has recently revised the Admission Code and has not tidied up the summer born issue - we, as local authorities, have been asked look favourably on such requests but it is not properly covered and we cannot direct non local authority schools to accept requests.

@downtonupton

I am a Mum of two summer borns and I work in school admissions and deal with requests from parents to defer.

One of my two would have benefited, I think from deferred entry - she is dyslexic and it wasn't picked up till she was in secondary school, we believe, because many of her struggles were put down to her being one of the young ones (long story there for another time). We moved just before she turned 4 and when we enquired about the possibility of delaying entry, we were told she'd have to go straight in to Y1 which we didn't want to do.

Our other DC was more than ready for school a few weeks after he turned 4 and flew...

It very much depends on the child. You know your child - but remember that it is about them - not about you holding on to them for another year.

From a work point of view, each year around January we have requests from parents who delayed entry and realised they made the wrong decision and their child is bored, ahead of their peers and needs more stimulation.They ask if they can move up to Y1 - but most head teachers aren't keen. We also have the parent who had delayed entry agreed and who have remained in Nursery for an extra year and they make in-year Reception applications for the same reason. Often if these parents had made a reception application at the expected time they would have got a place in their preferred school, but when the in-year is submitted it is full and they have to wait.

We are also finding now that many academies and selective schools are not accepting Y7 applications from the delayed entry children unless there was an underlying reason for the delay and evidence can be provided (ie not just 'kid is young' and parents didn't feel was ready, but the ones who are prem, had speech & language support etc).

This may change in time but the Government has recently revised the Admission Code and has not tidied up the summer born issue - we, as local authorities, have been asked look favourably on such requests but it is not properly covered and we cannot direct non local authority schools to accept requests.

just wanted to add that our local authority agrees all summer born requests for out community schools but we cannot make the decision fr admission authority schools.

When children are April/May/June born we try and discourage unless there are specific reasons but July and August are automatically agreed

If the only argument against deterring summer borns is that children were bored in Reception - I am sorry, it’s an issues of lazy teachers. As well as children who are used to be entertained by adults.

Back in the day - when my kids started Reception - both of them could read, knew their number bonds and understood multiplication. Not bragging, just explaining that both, were quite advanced academically.
And yet none of them were ‘bored at school’.
It is because even before school I taught them to play by themselves and not expect adults to be always entertaining them.

In a school setting, Reception is play based. So a ‘bored’ child can always pick up puzzles or other equipment that is there. And play with other kids that are ‘bored’. Which is what they are supposed to do.
And if they are ahead - they can always play with letters, or pick up a book.

In addition, deferred summer borns are really at the same developmental level as the fall children. So - as a group they can and should focus on whatever age appropriate activities teacher has decided for them.

I think ‘my child is bored’ is more about parental ambitions and anxiety over how quickly their child moves up educational milestones in the early years.

And the misplaced belief that that speed matters.
As one of my DDs reflected in about Y3 - back in R I was the only one who could read, but by now we are all at the same level of reading. We all read….

Ok, so the OP asked for peoples experiences. You are obvious sure that everyone that chooses not to defer is making the wrong choice. What do you think should happen?

Summer born children are up to six or seven months ahead of autumn children. I think the option to defer is right as all children are different, but delaying all summer born will just shift the problem.
What actually needs to happen is that our education system should align far more with what we actually know about child development.
Until that happens parents must be able to choose and should not be told they are making the wrong choice by someone who doesn’t know their child and circumstances. I’m not making that personal to me, I am perfectly informed, I mean that for everyone. I have been a member of the Facebook group for a while but I mostly find it full of ranting parents rather than any meaningful research.

By the way I’m sure it’s fabulous if you have made your decision and want some support but less helpful at providing support in making that decision.

@Italiandreams

This isn’t about providing support for one or the other decision - this is a discussion of pros and cons - so that someone can make their decision.

There is plenty of pros for deferring. All based on data on summer children doing so much worse as a result of being too young. Doing worse as a cohort both academically and socially.

As to Cons:
There seems to be a lack of argumentation of why it is BETTER for the summer borns to not be deterred, and start school a year earlier than they could.

Now that the government gives parents that choice - it is a decision where + and - need to be considered and weighed.

Except we are missing the data on negatives. Where is the data on deterred Sumer borns doing worse than those that aren’t deferred?

You are saying you are well informed - so you must have some sort of objective data that can tell parents why it’s beneficial to their summer children to be the youngest and start school at barely 4.

Emotions - I know my child, they are ready - isn’t objective data.
Higher rates of depression in adolescence, 30% less likely to go to university - is objective and relevant.

It is impossible to argue facts over emotions.

We have delayed our summer born son this year because he has global development delay and ASD. We applied for his school place before we decided with the input of professionals it would be in his best interests to delay his start. So my advise would be to apply for school place and accept the offer and you can always delay at a later date.

My summer born is having the BEST time in reception. It’s 95% play based, she says ‘it’s just like nursery but with reading & assembly mummy’. Pick the right school & I think it’s really pretty similar. 🤷🏼‍♀️

@Bobholll

Yes my sons the same but autumn born but is quite young minded!

I feel sorry for the kids who can read etc they must be bored shitless

I'm a summer born, last week of august. I didn't suffer at school at all. I was ahead in the majority of my classes, even compared to the eldest in the years.
If you're worried your child is socially behind, then keeping them behind another year will just put them at a further disadvantage.

@Hercisback

Extra year of childhood....? It's not a time travelling machine! You're just delaying school. Most kids are in nursery FT by then anyway.

To explain what I mean by that. If you take childhood to be the point until they reach the end of full time education, if I put her in her chronological cohort, she'll reach that point aged 17 (she'll sit her A levels and leave school before her 18th birthday), whereas if I delay her, she won't reach it until nearly 19. Hence, another year of childhood. Delays uni/work etc by a year.

@peboh

I'm a summer born, last week of august. I didn't suffer at school at all. I was ahead in the majority of my classes, even compared to the eldest in the years. If you're worried your child is socially behind, then keeping them behind another year will just put them at a further disadvantage.

How so?

@Bobholll

My summer born is having the BEST time in reception. It’s 95% play based, she says ‘it’s just like nursery but with reading & assembly mummy’. Pick the right school & I think it’s really pretty similar. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Yeah, reception doesn't worry me tbh. It's when the desk learning starts that concerns me.

She'll only reach it if she is allowed to transition to secondary late. She also won't qualify for extra yrs funding at post 16 level so you could cause issues there if Y12 doesn't go well.

Thanks to everyone sharing their views on both sides of the debate. It's such a tough one to call, but it's helpful to hear both sets of experiences. I've asked the head whether she'd support a CSA reception start now, and I guess I'll see what she says. If it's a flat no then at least it'll make my mind up for me!

I do think the set-up at my local primary is quite good from a play-based point of view- there is the option to spend Year 1 within the EYFS style of provision and the least mature half of the year do this. But if I don't delay her even that means she'd be behind a desk full time from just-turned six, which seems very young.

From a childcare perspective it doesn't matter either way- she attends a playgroup for her 30 hours and we have a nanny for my youngest who looks after them both the rest of the time- the nanny will be with us until my youngest starts school, and that won't be for a few years yet.

@Hercisback

She'll only reach it if she is allowed to transition to secondary late. She also won't qualify for extra yrs funding at post 16 level so you could cause issues there if Y12 doesn't go well.

This is something we've considered. However, I don't personally know anyone who had to repeat Year 13, so I don't think it's hugely common, and if she did need to we'd likely be able to fund it ourselves.

@Hercisback

She'll only reach it if she is allowed to transition to secondary late. She also won't qualify for extra yrs funding at post 16 level so you could cause issues there if Y12 doesn't go well.

That's wrong. Please do not spread misinformation. The DfE has publicly clarified this point, that there is an error jn the current guidance document that is being corrected.

Also it's stated very clearly here, in paragraph 45.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/914709/166to199fundingguidanceeRegulations20199to_2020-V1-2.pdf