North London DS at nursery looking at 4+ - tutor?

[dadwithbitofaclue]

Our son is currently in nursery in North London.

He is registered for many of the annoyingly highly selective schools in North London (most for 4+). We really don't want to sit him for so many competitive schools as it's a massive toll on him so we'd like to narrow down probably to 3-4 schools but of course that puts him in a situation he may not have a school to go to if he doesn't get in (his nursery goes to 4+ only really).

I understand there are a few tutors who help us thinking through the assessment processes and how we can help our DS thrive when them (we don't want to HEAVILY tutor him as it's all a bit fake, is not helpful for DS and schools see through it or so they say). But would love a bit of help - I hear there is a tutor or two in North London who specialise in 4+ assessments. I know I will get heat for asking but every little helps when there are between 5 to 10 applicants per place at these schools and can be a bit of a lottery.

Can someone pls PM the details of these tutors?

@rockhopper81

Sorry my last post read 7 grand a year , of course I meant a term.

@DaddyPhD

If my 'selective opinion' of success is subjective, then of course so is yours - everything you list sees success as money and power. I happen to disagree that that is what makes you successful. By it's nature success is objective, of course it is. My point is that these selective independent schools don't represent the real world - they don't in any way, shape or form, just a fact - and they propagate the concept of 'if your face doesn't fit', or in this case, the face of your parents.

There is an issue with its Oxbridge 'dominating' society, and it objectively doesn't represent said society. That's a problem. Selectively choosing children at 4 - and let's call it 'academic potential' then, rather ability - just keeps this roundabout going.

It's not about 'warm and cosy non-competition', it's about children being allowed to be children and not to be told they don't fit at 4. When Prince George started Reception there were articles written about how he would study 'Creative Art and Design', 'Knowledge and Understanding of the World' and 'Language and Literacy', as if they were specialty subjects offered by his exclusive school - they're areas of the EYFS (albeit changed slightly now), offered in early years settings up and down England, outstanding settings with a true child-led philosophy.

It's ironic you call me patronising, yet you're equally as bad. I understand that you think selective schools at 4 is okay, OK, I get it. But don't patronise me. And don't assume many parents burning desire is to have their child go to Oxbridge and become Prime Minister one day, because it's not, although I guess if it might be if you've made the cut for your child to mix only with fellow wealthy, MC/UC, well-connected people - then they can represent and govern the 'real world' they know nothing about. That's not patronising, just a fact.

@Rockhopper81

I think we're having a straw man argument here. You seem to suggest I'm arguing for elitism, I'm not - I'm pointing out its the reality of this country. Your an idealist, nothing wrong with that, I'm a cynical realist, nothing wrong with that either.

You say -" My point is that these selective independent schools don't represent the real world - they don't in any way, shape or form, just a fact - and they propagate the concept of 'if your face doesn't fit', or in this case, the face of your parents."

I agree. Always have. My point is many parents want this, see it as desirable.

You say -"Selectively choosing children at 4 - and let's call it 'academic potential' then, rather ability - just keeps this roundabout going."

I agree. The system perpetuates itself, has done for 100's of years.

You say -"It's not about 'warm and cosy non-competition', it's about children being allowed to be children and not to be told they don't fit at 4"

Who tells them? The parents???

You say "they're areas of the EYFS (albeit changed slightly now), offered in early years settings up and down England, outstanding settings with a true child-led philosophy."

4+ assessments are for, entry to RECEPTION. The OP son is already in an Early Years setting, this is for Primary Reception entry.

You say -"And don't assume many parents burning desire is to have their child go to Oxbridge and become Prime Minister one day, because it's not, although I guess if it might be if you've made the cut for your child to mix only with fellow wealthy, MC/UC, well-connected people - then they can represent and govern the 'real world' they know nothing about. That's not patronising, just a fact."

Your view of the parents of these prep school is almost cartoon like.

A guy I know works 4 jobs, he's a black immigrant from Angola who sends his kids to a well known prep school, he wants them all to be Prime Minister, he's just extremely, extremely ambitious, many parents from very humble backgrounds send their kids to private schools and work like dogs to pay the fees, they want everything for their children when they've grown up in poverty.

Did you grow up in a cramped council flat? Did you attend a run down overcrowded school, with drug dealing and gangs everywhere? Did you know children at your school growing up that came home to drug dependent parents, drunk abusive parents?

This is essentially why I'm a gritty realist, I'd love a education system which was fair for all and inclusive, but unless I move to Finland or the Netherlands or Germany, it doesn't exist in this country, it's the same as our health care system, we have a two tier system.

Couldn't have put it better than the above post by @DaddyPhD, I am also not arguing against any of the points you are making @Rockhopper81. The system is what it is.

Children are not labelled by schools as a 'failure' and there are lots of things children are not selected for from an early age, whether it be a big part in a stage production, selected to be on a sports team or compete for something else. It is part of life and upto you as a parent whether you label that as a failure or teach them that we all have our strengths and help them find theirs.

I don't aspire for Oxbridge for my children but earlier comments about child becoming a hairdresser is similar to my sentiment; I want them to be happy in whatever they do and have the confidence to go get what they want. It is something I have not had growing up.

Before DD started school, I also feared we would not fit in with other parents as they would be far more wealthy - turns out the majority are like us - ethnic minority, both in professional roles and working very hard to pay fees, sometimes one holiday a year but not much more. We have had a number of playdates this term and majority have similar sized modest house, certainly nothing like the huge wealth you are describing

@DaddyPhD

I'm really pleased that the Angolan chap you know is working 4 jobs to pay for his children to go to private school - good for him! That isn't achievable to everyone though, some people are working 'like dogs' just to keep a roof over their head - working 4 jobs isn't possible for them.

Also, just to point out, RECEPTION (not sure why you capitalised it - to make a point??) is part of the EYFS - the National Curriculum doesn't begin until Year 1. Please don't try and correct me on early education terms, I'm an early years teacher by profession.

I think we are never going to agree on this, and I don't think our viewpoints are actually all that different intrinsically, just expressed differently (and without the aspiration for elitism on my part). I'm not actually a true idealist, I'm probably between idealist and realist, but that doesn't mean I'm not passionate about equality in education, and assessments for entry to Reception definitely go against my philosophy.

@usernamehell

Yes, children aren't always selected for things, and I'm actually a big proponent of learning how to fail/not win from an early age, but in things like games and sports, not something as fundamental as education - not being selected for a sports team or drama production isn't quite in the same league as being told 'you don't fit in here' at school.

I mean this in the nicest possible way - if you have two professional careers in your modest house and can afford a holiday, you're already considerably more wealthy than a lot of the people around you. I'm pleased you're making it work for you, but you have to accept your privileged to be able to make that choice to send your child to private school.

[quote Rockhopper81]@DaddyPhD

I'm really pleased that the Angolan chap you know is working 4 jobs to pay for his children to go to private school - good for him! That isn't achievable to everyone though, some people are working 'like dogs' just to keep a roof over their head - working 4 jobs isn't possible for them.

Also, just to point out, RECEPTION (not sure why you capitalised it - to make a point??) is part of the EYFS - the National Curriculum doesn't begin until Year 1. Please don't try and correct me on early education terms, I'm an early years teacher by profession.

I think we are never going to agree on this, and I don't think our viewpoints are actually all that different intrinsically, just expressed differently (and without the aspiration for elitism on my part). I'm not actually a true idealist, I'm probably between idealist and realist, but that doesn't mean I'm not passionate about equality in education, and assessments for entry to Reception definitely go against my philosophy.

@usernamehell

Yes, children aren't always selected for things, and I'm actually a big proponent of learning how to fail/not win from an early age, but in things like games and sports, not something as fundamental as education - not being selected for a sports team or drama production isn't quite in the same league as being told 'you don't fit in here' at school.

I mean this in the nicest possible way - if you have two professional careers in your modest house and can afford a holiday, you're already considerably more wealthy than a lot of the people around you. I'm pleased you're making it work for you, but you have to accept your privileged to be able to make that choice to send your child to private school.[/quote]
@Rockhopper81

Sorry but your statement to usernamehell, I found offensive.

1 percent of this country own nearly a quarter of the UK's wealth, I do find it odd you would point out privilege to someone from an ethnic minority who has a professional career. That's hardly the ruling elite is it?

I work as an academic and amongst my PhD cohort, I don't remember seeing one black face. There are 19,285 professors in UK universities in total according to a 2019 report by AdvanceHE. 12,795 are white males, 4,560 are white women. There are 90 black men and 35 black women.

Privilege is all relative and one could argue white privilege affords a view of education not enjoyed by someone from an ethnic minority, you would do well to remember this, especially as someone who teaches children.

I mean this in the nicest possible way - if you have two professional careers in your modest house and can afford a holiday, you're already considerably more wealthy than a lot of the people around you. I'm pleased you're making it work for you, but you have to accept your privileged to be able to make that choice to send your child to private school.

Without a shadow of a doubt we are very privileged to have the choice. I was pointing out that private school parents do not fit the perception you seem to have of them.

Yes, children aren't always selected for things, and I'm actually a big proponent of learning how to fail/not win from an early age, but in things like games and sports, not something as fundamental as education - not being selected for a sports team or drama production isn't quite in the same league as being told 'you don't fit in here' at school.

I am really struggling to see the issue you have with schools being selective. Children are not being denied an education and there are so many other excellent schools. As @DaddyPhD mentioned, these schools have far far more applicants than places they can offer. As a result, they use this as a form of selection and pick those they feel will be best suited to the fast paced environment. At no point do they tell a child they are failing.

Children are excluded from oversubscribed state schools based on where they live. Are they a 'failure' because their parents can't/didn't have a house near the school? A state school will separate children within a class according to ability and they will work accordingly; are the lower ability 'failures' for not being given exactly the same work as highest ability?

You have a huge emphasis on children failing if they are not offered a place. Unless the parent treats them like a failure (which is pretty poor parenting), they would not even know this was the case. They go to a new school to play for a morning and speak to a member of staff for a little while. Based on this they are or are not offered a place. There is nothing more to it. There are many many children in DD's school who did not separate at the assessment because they did not want to leave their parent in an unfamiliar environment; the school work around it as they do it every year. They were still offered a place and are now happy at the school.

[quote JumperandJacket]@Clymene Do you live in London, btw?[/quote]
I do. Why?

At least academically selective seem to have more or less understandable criteria: talking, reading, using scissors, coloring patterns etc.
Thomas's schools select "outgoing" children. How can someone tell if a 3-year old is outgoing or not?

@DaddyPhD

You found my statement to another poster offensive? Because people from ethnic minorities cannot have economic privilege, that's what you're suggesting - I am well versed in white privilege, thank you very much, but we are talking about economic privilege here and you know it.

You're looking for an argument and I'm not quite sure why - ethnicity has no bearding. Your black Angolan chap (as you described him, not me) has the privilege of being able to work 4 jobs to send his children to independent school, as in he actually has four jobs and, one would think, the childcare to allow him to do so. @usernamehell has the privilege of two professional incomes to allow them to send their child to independent school - that's an undeniable privilege in this context.

What has a professional person from an ethnic minority got to do with privilege in the context of sending children to selective independent schools? Do not tell me what I would do well to do in regards to teaching - I have taught children in some of the most deprived areas of the country, do not tell me I don't know what privilege (and the lack thereof) looks like. Perhaps you would do well to check your own privilege in assuming I was in the wrong for saying a professional ethnic minority person was privileged - note I said they were privileged, not that they had inherent privilege based on the colour of their skin, it's different. You've made this racial and again I'm not quite sure why.

@usernamehell - I agree not all independent schools fit the mould you have assumed I have of them; I'm going to get selective schools at 4 do to a great degree, but I accept I cannot be sure of that. And I actually have no issue with selective schools at 11, when children are aware that it may not be possible for them to go to that school, I just wonder at the reasoning behind a selective school for a 4 year old - I now realise it's to push them towards Oxbridge and the (according to @DaddyPhD) success that comes with it. As I don't understand how this is part of the definition of success, I understand I will never understand why people do it. That is fine, I think we both just have different educational philosophies, which is just human. so

My sincerely apologies if my statement offended you, it was not my intention. I am aware that isn't the best apology, but I stand by the statement - I am, however, sorry if it offended you.

@Rockhopper81 no offence taken. As you said, we come from different perspectives and that is never a bad thing :) From an economic perspective we are very fortunate and very aware of it. It requires a LOT to pay for private education today so we are incredibly grateful we have things to sacrifice in order to do so.

Pushing towards Oxbridge is most certainly not our intention when we opted for selective schooling. We actually had full intention to go down the state route until the pandemic hit. The gap between state and private provision was immense and we decided we wanted our children to have what the privates were offering, especially when so young and much harder for us to teach (imo). Nursery were the ones who advised the highly selective ones as they felt she was very capable and would thrive there.

I wholeheartedly am for more equal provision in the state system but it feels we are further than ever from it. Selfishly, I am not prepared to reduce opportunities for my DC because we would prefer a socialist ideal

@usernamehell

I think the pandemic certainly has highlighted the gap between state and private provision in education, so I can understand why you opted for independent. It sounds like your daughter is doing very well at school.

@DaddyPhD

I stated your comment suggested people from ethnic minorities couldn't have economic privilege by bringing it up, and that ethnicity had no bearing on another poster being economically privileged to send their child to independent school. Don't try and turn this around to fit your argument, when that's clearly not what I said.

I never suggested ethnicity has no bearing in the state education system, never even implied it, so you need to back right down on that front. This discussion hasn't been about motivations and difficulties for the parents of black children in education - again, you brought up ethnicity, it really wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having - but since you did mention it, the group showing lowest progression rates to university is poor white children, specifically poor white boys. The only group performing lower at all levels of education are Gypsy, Roma and Traveller children, the majority of whom do not go to secondary school at all.

I am well aware of factors that contribute to poor education performance - are you? Because socioeconomic levels are the leading factor overall.

No need to question my knowledge or feel anything is a tragedy: the base is broad and comprehensive, and there is nothing tragic about it, thanks. I also - unlike yourself - haven't resorted to personal attacks to support my point, or questioned your knowledge base, at any time - indeed, I've acknowledged your situation is very different from mine and accepted we will never agree. Make of that what you will.

I haven't read the whole thread. I wouldn't bother getting a tutor - most of the stuff is stuff you can do yourself.

• Can your child have a pleasant conversation with a near stranger? When you go into a shop, give them the money and get them to politely ask for what it is that they want to buy.
• Can they draw a picture of a person or of their family?
• Some schools will want children to recognise all their letters and numbers but by no means all
• Read a new story to them and stop halfway through - ask them to tell you what they think happens next
• Practise throwing and catching balls

The assessment should be fun for the children.

@DaddyPhD

How does it show my compete lack of understanding? You brought ethnicity into the discussion - something I hadn't at all - and have now decided I was insulting by giving the factual information regarding underperformance at all educational levels?

It's statistically true that you're more likely to be poor if you're from an ethnic minority group; but, if you're poor and white, you're statistically more likely to underperform educationally. That's not dismissing your concerns for your children at all, it's bringing relevant information to the table. A table you set up by bringing ethnicity into it. White working class children do achieve less statistically, that's not opinion, it's fact.

Do you know how insulting you are? You have a distinct lack of critical thinking, as you can only see this from your viewpoint - I have admitted I cannot understand selective independent school admission at 4, and you have turned this into me lacking awareness of ethnicity on educational attainment (which I don't) and being insulting (which I still fail to see how I've been).

I cannot win this argument - which is what it's turned into, from a discussion - so it's best we leave it. I'm not prepared to be personally attacked and my ability, experience and knowledge questioned, neither am I prepared to accept it being heavily implied that I'm unaware of racial issues, particularly by someone who knows absolutely nothing about me.

Also - you haven't once ascertained my ethnicity, you've assumed. I'm fairly certain your PhD studies wouldn't have encouraged that.

Also, can they recognise their own name written down? Better if they can write it but not essential.

@Rockhopper81:
Even at the age of 3 different children will be at different levels of development.
Parents of those children look for schools that will support their development at their pace. Otherwise these children will be bored and won't develop to their full potential.
At 3-4 it is not about "success" or "failure". It is about finding the right school for a particular child, if parents can afford to choose.
I am against tutoring at 3-4 but pro attending assessments at different schools to see which one suits best.

@Rockhopper81: Are you an Early years teacher?
Surely you have seen 4 year old children who developmentally were at the level of 6 year old?
What do state schools offer to such children?
I have heard about couple of children who were way ahead of their age group. Parents sent to certain private schools (won't mention here), found out that their children did not learn anything during the year. So the parents moved those children to different schools (private again).

This is one of the most depressing OPs I have read in education.

@DaddyPhD

We're clearly having two very, very different discussions, so I'll leave it here.