North London DS at nursery looking at 4+ - tutor?

[dadwithbitofaclue]

Our son is currently in nursery in North London.

He is registered for many of the annoyingly highly selective schools in North London (most for 4+). We really don't want to sit him for so many competitive schools as it's a massive toll on him so we'd like to narrow down probably to 3-4 schools but of course that puts him in a situation he may not have a school to go to if he doesn't get in (his nursery goes to 4+ only really).

I understand there are a few tutors who help us thinking through the assessment processes and how we can help our DS thrive when them (we don't want to HEAVILY tutor him as it's all a bit fake, is not helpful for DS and schools see through it or so they say). But would love a bit of help - I hear there is a tutor or two in North London who specialise in 4+ assessments. I know I will get heat for asking but every little helps when there are between 5 to 10 applicants per place at these schools and can be a bit of a lottery.

Can someone pls PM the details of these tutors?

Our DC did the 4+ - we told them that they see going to see a school, play with some toys and have a biscuit afterwards. They loved it - spent most of time time in the sand and water play.
No tutoring and generally no idea what they were asked - they did have story/circle time, though.

We are not in North London, which sounds like a toxic educational environment. I have friends in the state primary system there where parents are tutoring their children and have a SAHP - they see both full time and just can’t keep up but feel pressured to.

@FoggySpecs does make you wonder what they are assessing. Is it the child or the parents and potential SEN.. If a child does so 'badly' but gets offers.

I think the pressure on small children is immense and I don’t agree with the view that it is important to get into selective schools early if they need tutoring to get there.

Later on, some children will find some/all topics easier than other children. Excessive tutoring will only get a child into a school where they will struggle (I am talking about weekly tutoring in several topics, not “catching up/plugging potential gaps or exam techniques).

DD has a friend who was tutored heavily to get into SPGS. She barely made it, continues to require excessive tutoring to keep up and is very unhappy. Another girl who got in by herself is having the time of her life, loving all extension exercises etc.

DD is not at SPGS. I think that environment wouldn’t have suited her so we never put her up for the admission. DD loves her current school and is doing really well. Most importantly, she is top set some topics, lower set some topics and is learning to take responsibility for her own studies. She is extremely motivated and very happy.

[quote Lily7050]@Rockhopper81: my understanding is different schools select on different criteria. I was told Thomas's select outgoing children.
"Academically selective" try to select quick learners. Their curriculum usually is one or even two years ahead of national curriculum. Some schools exit out children who cannot cope with their pace.[/quote]
“Exit out” - ?? Do you mean - expel??

I’m staggered by the idea of paying another adult to “tutor” your four-year-old. It’s actually really sad. Let your children play, let them explore and have fun, talk to them, read to them - all at their pace. Take them out and about, chat and laugh with them. Sing silly songs. Be playful. Let them be. They’re not a bloody project, FGS.

wealthy well behaved bright other children who can also use scissors

This is a very accurate summation of what they're looking for at 4. The children in the nursery at the academically selective indy school I work for are biddable, polite, very compliant and eager to please. Very few of them remain at the school through until the 6th Form which is now made up of about 50% foreign pupils who join in Y13.

OP did not invent the selective independent school process.
Their choice on how they navigate through the process is there’s alone.
They requested information not judgement.
Let’s be kind

And that's what they got, information: tutoring a 3 year-old is pointless, relax, try to make it fun for the child, even if you don't find a tutor they'll still have access to education. Maybe a few posts were judgemental, but the panic in the OP was way over the top as well.

Its really strange reading the comments to this dad posting about tutors.

Some schools like St Pauls Girls, Westminster etc, produce eye watering A level results, I mean results that my local state school can only dream about. Some parents are completely bonkers ambitious over achievers. And the fact remains these private prep schools are gateways to these private schools, parents are desperate to get them in as they are seen as conveyor belts to over-achieving success and for some people thats vitally important, right or wrong.

I was told by someone I'm a crazy over achiever, I was offended but its probably true, the same has been said about my wife. So its no surprise that offspring of people like this want , demand , ruthlessly the very best schools for their kids.

We looked at schools for our DD , we live in London, and decided we are classic 'champagne socialists' in that we do believe private schools are unfair, privileged leg ups to the wealthy and informed ( we intend to pay from our income but will be using every scholarship and bursary we can lay our hands on) our politics cannot stop our DD having the opportunities these places offer- over achievement.

@DaddyPhD: St Paul's or Westminster is not for everybody. Even if parents got PhD's it does not guarantee that the child turns up to the level that these schools are looking for.
I am pro natural abilities. If my child is bright enough he will make it and I will obviously support him. If he is more into drama, music etc and not so good academically I will support his passions. I am not going to try to turn a natural musician or artist into mathematician or scientist.
From my observations people in all professions are happy, do well and earn well, if they are passionate and have talent for the profession be it hairdresser or anything else.

@Mumteacher1

OP did not invent the selective independent school process. Their choice on how they navigate through the process is there’s alone. They requested information not judgement. Let’s be kind

Couldn't agree more but sadly I have experienced nasty comments, judgement and ridicule for simply stating (imo) what aspects of everyday parenting contributed to my DD getting a place at one of these highly sought after schools.

Not once did I imply I am superior, she is better than others or that other parents do not take the time to do similar activities with their children. It still does not stop many from making horrible comments with absolutely nothing to achieve from them other than putting someone else down.

[quote Lily7050]@DaddyPhD: St Paul's or Westminster is not for everybody. Even if parents got PhD's it does not guarantee that the child turns up to the level that these schools are looking for.
I am pro natural abilities. If my child is bright enough he will make it and I will obviously support him. If he is more into drama, music etc and not so good academically I will support his passions. I am not going to try to turn a natural musician or artist into mathematician or scientist.
From my observations people in all professions are happy, do well and earn well, if they are passionate and have talent for the profession be it hairdresser or anything else.[/quote]
@lily7050 of course, who knows what abilities a child has at 4+ and getting your child into a feeder school is no way at all of assuring a place at these type of schools, but it's an advantage if they ARE and placed in feeder school already.

Feeder schools do actually cater for children that aren't suited to academic hot houses, and will tell the parents if they are unsuited to the st Pauls and Westminster ( the parents might not listen unfortunately).

I can honestly say if my daughter wanted to be a hairdresser and that was a true love, she'll have my blessing. I'll still want her to be the best hairdresser in the world, and I'd be lying if she was satisfied being a hairdresser in an obscure little high Street I'd be over the moon, but if that's what she wants....

Apart from Ballots, what can do these hugely oversubscribed prep schools do? Most 4+ assessments from a child's perspectives are just play. The dad who posted is just making sure his son isn't at a disadvantage for a cruel game. "hate the game - not the player" Tutoring for 4+ assessments is a thing, he can make a stand and not put up with this nonsense , but is that going to help his son?

Apart from Ballots, what can these hugely oversubscribed prep schools do? Most 4+ assessments from a child's perspectives are just play. The dad who posted is just making sure his son isn't at a disadvantage for a cruel game. "hate the game - not the player" Tutoring for 4+ assessments is a thing, he can make a stand and not put up with this nonsense , but is that going to help his son?

But this is the point, isn't it - why is tutoring for 4+ assessments a 'thing'? It's basically saying a child is failing at age 3 or 4 - they're not good enough. It's also making sure these schools only have children of the same 'kind' mixing with each other - wealthy, predominantly white, non-SEN children.

Surely the only selection criteria necessary for independent schools is the ability to pay for the education (whether independent schools are morally good is another matter) - and at 3/4 that's the parents ability to pay, not bursaries or scholarships, as the possibility of a child that age being so gifted they would get a scholarship is microscopically small.

Paying for your 4 year olds education is one thing; tutoring them so that they 'play the best they can' at assessments (since that is what the assessments are reported to be) is entirely another.

@Rockhopper81

Apart from Ballots, what can these hugely oversubscribed prep schools do? Most 4+ assessments from a child's perspectives are just play. The dad who posted is just making sure his son isn't at a disadvantage for a cruel game. "hate the game - not the player" Tutoring for 4+ assessments is a thing, he can make a stand and not put up with this nonsense , but is that going to help his son?

But this is the point, isn't it - why is tutoring for 4+ assessments a 'thing'? It's basically saying a child is failing at age 3 or 4 - they're not good enough. It's also making sure these schools only have children of the same 'kind' mixing with each other - wealthy, predominantly white, non-SEN children.

Surely the only selection criteria necessary for independent schools is the ability to pay for the education (whether independent schools are morally good is another matter) - and at 3/4 that's the parents ability to pay, not bursaries or scholarships, as the possibility of a child that age being so gifted they would get a scholarship is microscopically small.

Paying for your 4 year olds education is one thing; tutoring them so that they 'play the best they can' at assessments (since that is what the assessments are reported to be) is entirely another.

@Rockhopper81

Tutoring at 4+ is only a thing in that small corner of N London, nowhere else really.

Its not saying your child is failing as no school would EVER go on record to advise you tutor your child. They are looking for whatever they see as a fit for that school.

In London I think you'd be challenged by what a typical family who send their child to private school looks like. Most non-white cultures place huge value on education that you pay for , and many non white cultures place a huge value on single sex education. Our DD is currently at a single sex pre-prep attached to a prep that is very diverse ethnically and across class too, white van drivers to university professors.

At the more Tatler end of prep schools, flick through their websites and they'll always pay lip service at least to show how diverse the school is by including children that are non-white. Children with SEN needs are not excluded from private schools, if the mainstream setting is right for them, in that they are no different from state primaries.

The selection criteria for indie schools is down to them, not just the ability to pay. Its their school, they choose, simple as that. They all have entirely different ethos.

Most preps don't even offer scholarships and bursaries until 7+ and in those cases, its simple means tested, if a family earns a low 35K they may end up paying zero fees. Scholarships by their nature are for the exceptional, but they are often just prestige awards and only cover a small part of fees.

I imagine the tutoring is doing mock assessments, playing with other kids and setting them play tasks, etc. I can't see what else it can be?

OP in the nicest possible way, don’t panic, there are a gazillion private prep schools in N London and apart from a small handful they really aren’t that hard to get into. Your ability to pay will get you into someone he totally fine.

I’ve brought up 3 children in the madness of N London and have had my kids in state and private schools. Trust me when I say that any School with even a smattering of MC kids like your own will have almost identical outcomes at the end. You’ll find yourself trekking up the stairs of the same university halls of the same university courses as those kids who were at selective private’s and decent comprehensives and they’ll all bump into each other when they all start law school and accountancy training and civil service fast track and in their first hospital rotation and at the same production company only difference is that one of those kids will have got there for £250k less. Trust me, I’m watching this play out time and again with my kids and with the other kids we knew right from baby classes

@Rockhopper81: fiy, if you read some of ISI reports of private selective schools you will see they have children with SEN and children whose English is not the first language.

@Lily7050

And what percentage of these selective school pupils have SEN or E2L?

For example, a friend of mine teaches in a reception class with 10 different first languages - there is no way an independent school represents that range. I'd also guess that the children in independent schools speak good English - or at the very least have parents who are very supportive of learning.

As for SEN, whilst I agree there may be some children in independent schools with SEN/D, they are likely to be academically high achieving, as parents who are paying for their child's education do not want it disrupted by 'difficult' children (not my description, incidentally). And they certainly aren't going to be at selective schools - these schools will only take high achieving, well behaved pupils, as they rely on selling their results to continue to get their oversubscription.

Also, @DaddyPhD - whilst no school would ever go on record advising a tutor for 4+, if they are looking for children who are a 'good fit', some by definition are going to 'fail' as they won't be a 'good fit'. I agree with a PP, it's social selection at 4+. And as above with regards to SEN.

But this is the point, isn't it - why is tutoring for 4+ assessments a 'thing'? It's basically saying a child is failing at age 3 or 4 - they're not good enough. It's also making sure these schools only have children of the same 'kind' mixing with each other - wealthy, predominantly white, non-SEN children.

Surely the only selection criteria necessary for independent schools is the ability to pay for the education (whether independent schools are morally good is another matter) - and at 3/4 that's the parents ability to pay, not bursaries or scholarships, as the possibility of a child that age being so gifted they would get a scholarship is microscopically small.

Tutoring at 4+ isn't a 'thing' for many but some choose that option the same way that some coach children for other activities. At no point has anyone suggested a child that does not get an offer from one of these schools is failing, just that it is not the best environment for that child.

Using the terminology 'failing' is very much your interpretation of the situation. In reality, it is genuinely that the child is not best suited - DD's school moves at an alarmingly fast rate academically from first week of Reception. We are at the end of term 1 and they are already beyond Y1 standard for National Curriculum. It suits her well and she is thriving which is why we accepted the place but will not suit many. To keep up, you need to be able to pick up concepts and work extremely quickly so they select those that they feel will benefit. I have absolutely no doubt that there are other schools which will achieve similar results as hers without being so pushy so early on. I will be looking at them for DC2 as he is not suited to the same environment as her.

They are very anti-tutor for 4+ entrance but some parents will go down that route - it is possible those children will either need continued tutoring to keep up as a PP further up said for SPGS or they will be 'managed out' because they cannot cope with the demands of the school. This is why I firmly believe no tutor is necessary

@usernamehell

Because saying a child 'doesn't fit' is much better than 'failing'?? By your own admission, children will be 'managed out' if they fail to keep up - is that not failing? Is that what you would want for your 7 or 11 year old - managed out because they no long 'fit'??

Academic aptitude at 4 does not necessarily indicate academic aptitude at 7, or 11, or 14, or 16. There are also no benefits to racing through the equivalent of the Y1 curriculum in YR - there is a big push on depth of learning as well as breadth. And again, there's no allowance for SEN/D in that scenario, so it's not representative on a typical classroom.

[quote Rockhopper81]@Lily7050

And what percentage of these selective school pupils have SEN or E2L?

For example, a friend of mine teaches in a reception class with 10 different first languages - there is no way an independent school represents that range. I'd also guess that the children in independent schools speak good English - or at the very least have parents who are very supportive of learning.

As for SEN, whilst I agree there may be some children in independent schools with SEN/D, they are likely to be academically high achieving, as parents who are paying for their child's education do not want it disrupted by 'difficult' children (not my description, incidentally). And they certainly aren't going to be at selective schools - these schools will only take high achieving, well behaved pupils, as they rely on selling their results to continue to get their oversubscription.

Also, @DaddyPhD - whilst no school would ever go on record advising a tutor for 4+, if they are looking for children who are a 'good fit', some by definition are going to 'fail' as they won't be a 'good fit'. I agree with a PP, it's social selection at 4+. And as above with regards to SEN.[/quote]
@Rockhopper81

These prep schools see themselves as conduits that end in one place (*two places) Oxbridge. While its noble you talk of SEN provision and labelling fail and pass, these schools are for the OPPOSITE of any parent concerned with that. That's the road parents are signing up for. A road where winning is important and a place in an academic hothouse the prize.

Is that a place for a SEN student? Is that a place for any happy go lucky non super bright child? No.

Of course its social selection because the parents who clamour to send their kids to these schools all see a future Prime Minister or Nobel Prize winner. These schools send huge numbers to the highest achieving private senior schools in the country, of course they will cream off the child who is most likely to achieve that.

I genuinely don't understand your point, why would parents of a SEN child want to send their child to an uber competitive, hothouse prep?? Why would someone worried about labelling failure or success send their child to a school geared for elite senior schools, full of tiger parents who drill into their children its the winning that counts??? I don't understand.

This whole country is built on elitism and winners and losers, at complete odds with sane education systems found in places like Finland or Germany.

@Rockhopper81 quite right -
What is the point of racing through at a dizzying pace? It's not a race. It's about quality, deep learning and consolidation. And playing!
I thought SW London, where we once lived was bad but this is all nuts!
Thankfully my DC went to their local primary and secondary schools and still managed to get to Cambridge and Durham respectively, plus post grad and then jobs. And mixed with all kinds of properly diverse kids along the way. Not just middle class.
If kids are 'managed out' then they've failed in all but the actual word. Madness.

@Rockhopper81 not suited to one school does not mean not suited to all schools so why would you call it a failure? The school are explicitly clear of their expectations of the children and how they operate, it is our responsibility as parents not to push them in there if it is not suited. The push on depth of learning is very much present at these schools, they simply cant achieve the results they do without it. It should also me noted that the school do not regularly manage children out - they know exactly what they are looking for when they assess at 4 years old. I have no concerns about my child 'failing' or being managed out as they got their place on their own merit with no prepping or tutor.

As a parent with one child who is suited and one who is not, I do not consider my second to be a 'failure' by any standard. They are also a bright child who will do well but not in the same environment. There is no shame there

I very much agree with @DaddyPhD that I also do not understand the point you are trying to make.

I think the OP has been scared off! I got briefly caught up in this madness when I had my ds1 23 years ago - I lived in N London and everyone I knew from baby classes etc was putting their kids through this. Needless to say my DS (who was dyspraxic and subsequently diagnosed as autistic) couldn't use a pair of scissors and failed the Highgate test at 4. I quickly came to my senses (and got a grip of my socialist roots).

Anyway all of my children have stayed state throughout, 3 are at good universities now and are, as @Oneforthemoneytwo says, now studying with their peers from the local private schools. I'm so pleased I saved my money. We stayed in N London, have never used tutors and have avoided the pressured, unreal (because really the private schools are not at all diverse) and inherently unjust and unfair private system

But the OP has already made his mind up, and, bafflingly, has made the choice to register his own child for "annoyingly highly selective" schools.

@DaddyPhD and @morechocolateneededtoday

And I genuinely don't understand how you can't see the issue with potential tutoring and academically selecting children and 3 and 4 years old. I think we just come at this from two very, very different places - I don't believe in academic selection for 3 and 4 year olds, you clearly don't see the issue, therefore we're always destined to different opinions.

My comment about SEN/D children is that independent schools don't present a wide variety of backgrounds and abilities for children to mix in, and these schools who select at 3 and 4 are saying children don't 'fit' for them (so fail to meet their expectations - they're not wealthy MC/UC, bright, socially confident, well behaved children). This isn't the real world, or rather it doesn't reflect the real world - having no awareness of any socioeconomic or ability group other than your peers does not set you up for successful adulthood, if only because you'll have no concept of how other people might live.

And agreed @foodiscomplicated - how much playing do YR children do in these schools? Because if they've passed the end of Y1 expectations before the end of term one of YR, I can guarantee it's not a lot at all. Despite best educational practise saying children need to play - in fact learn best through it! - particularly in the EYFS (and beyond). It's not something to be proud of.

[quote Rockhopper81]**@DaddyPhD* and @morechocolateneededtoday*

And I genuinely don't understand how you can't see the issue with potential tutoring and academically selecting children and 3 and 4 years old. I think we just come at this from two very, very different places - I don't believe in academic selection for 3 and 4 year olds, you clearly don't see the issue, therefore we're always destined to different opinions.

My comment about SEN/D children is that independent schools don't present a wide variety of backgrounds and abilities for children to mix in, and these schools who select at 3 and 4 are saying children don't 'fit' for them (so fail to meet their expectations - they're not wealthy MC/UC, bright, socially confident, well behaved children). This isn't the real world, or rather it doesn't reflect the real world - having no awareness of any socioeconomic or ability group other than your peers does not set you up for successful adulthood, if only because you'll have no concept of how other people might live.

And agreed @foodiscomplicated - how much playing do YR children do in these schools? Because if they've passed the end of Y1 expectations before the end of term one of YR, I can guarantee it's not a lot at all. Despite best educational practise saying children need to play - in fact learn best through it! - particularly in the EYFS (and beyond). It's not something to be proud of.[/quote]
@rockhopper81

Firstly I don't think they're represent ''The real world" ! If you want the real world, why would you go to a 7 grand a year elite Prep in North London?????????

I don't see the issue because you CANNOT academically select at 3 or 4 for goodness sake and the school doesn't either. They assess because they have 100's of applicants and only a few places.

The number of pupils registered dwarf the number of places , even your most plummy Tatler crowd prep would want to make its selection process equally accessible to all pupils regardless of their ethnicity, religion, or background. So they either do a ballot ( name in a hat like Bute) or they do 4+ assessment. Some tiger parents are so desperate to get their kids in they turn to tutors, because they are nuts.

Each of my posts, I've never said I support tutoring for 4+, I don't even think you can.

You write:

"This isn't the real world, or rather it doesn't reflect the real world - having no awareness of any socioeconomic or ability group other than your peers does not set you up for successful adulthood, if only because you'll have no concept of how other people might live."

The real world is The Sutton Trust says pupils from eight schools filled 1,310 Oxbridge places over three years, compared with 1,220 from 2,900 other schools. EIGHT SCHOOLS . Of the Eight schools, how many were private schools SIX OF THEM.

Oxbridge DOMINATES every part of this society- Law, Banking, Journalism Education, Politics even our successful actors. It has a stranglehold, anyone who denies this is a fantasist.

So by what metric do you see "does not set you up for successful adulthood, "

I went to a low achievement run down state school, and if you want to see ""does not set you up for successful adulthood, " I can give you the phone numbers of my classmates.

Even if you do make it to somewhere like Oxbridge from a state school FIRMLY in the 'real world' , you'll feel completely alienated and at a disadvantage and struggle like hell socially because even the state school kids are middle classed.

I understand your attack on elitism and the thought it starts so young, but there are many private schools that are nothing like this, many that are easy to get into, have very warm cosy ethos of non-competition.

It horses for courses, you don't agree or like it and think its wrong, OK , I get it. But please stop patronising with 'real world' and 'successful adulthood' because that's your subjective opinion of success and what constitutes real life. For many parents real life is getting their sprog into elite universities and said sprog becoming prime minister one day.