North London DS at nursery looking at 4+ - tutor?

[dadwithbitofaclue]

Our son is currently in nursery in North London.

He is registered for many of the annoyingly highly selective schools in North London (most for 4+). We really don't want to sit him for so many competitive schools as it's a massive toll on him so we'd like to narrow down probably to 3-4 schools but of course that puts him in a situation he may not have a school to go to if he doesn't get in (his nursery goes to 4+ only really).

I understand there are a few tutors who help us thinking through the assessment processes and how we can help our DS thrive when them (we don't want to HEAVILY tutor him as it's all a bit fake, is not helpful for DS and schools see through it or so they say). But would love a bit of help - I hear there is a tutor or two in North London who specialise in 4+ assessments. I know I will get heat for asking but every little helps when there are between 5 to 10 applicants per place at these schools and can be a bit of a lottery.

Can someone pls PM the details of these tutors?

Just play and engage with your child rather than paying someone else to do it.
DS spent his preschool years and beyond making his own elaborate stories up using Lego and plastic figures. I let him take over the house with his adventures in imagination because it was an utter delight. Between times we snuggled and read. His only indulgence is that we never said no to a book. Unsurprisingly he ended up reading English at Cambridge and now teaches and writes for a living.
Oh and he went to state schools throughout.

I am in SW London. Here there are nurseries like Pippa Poppins who claim to prepare children for Kensington Prep and Thomas's assessments. They even publish "Future Schools" list.
My DS in another nursery but they also prepare for local private primaries.
Ask your nursery if they have children going to the schools your child is registered with. If yes, then the nursery would be familiar with assessment requirements.
I know someone from Finchley. Her children went to selective primary somewhat 20 years. Shen said children who went to play with sand at assessment did not get places in the school because the school thought those families did not have sand pit at home.
4+ is not about "sitting" math or English tests. Children are assessed on how they interact with other children and adults. Not sure how a tutor can teach the skills on their own.

As far as I'm aware it's being able to use scissors, play nicely with others, do an age appropriate puzzle, sit and listen to a story and answer questions....that sort of thing.... I am sure the school are also looking at what type of parents they want too!! None of this is tutor territory. I'm so glad we left London!

Many years ago when we were living overseas the expat mums would fret about how their tots would get into the selective International School. Apparently one of the tests was whether or not a child could
Stand on one leg.
It was hilarious then and now and we steered clear!

how about play, talk, read with your child !

At that age it's not possible to tell how bright they are - all they can do is weed out those with more obvious SEN. It doesn't sound like a nice or inclusive school where you child will mix with a wide range of other children - it sounds narrow and unpleasant.

All inclusive non-selective primaries take as many pupils as they can and schools become overcrowded. Yes, there is no guarantee to get place there as they give priority to siblings of current pupils.
And what about state faith schools? They choose pupils on the basis of religion. I do not understand the logic of faith schools: they are funded from the state budget which is built using taxpayers money. I pay lots of taxes yet my child will not be accepted in any of these schools.
On the other side we do not want to send a child to a religious school. So far we identified just one state school which is non-religious and we live within their catchment area.

That's why we are looking into private schools. And btw, 7% of children in the UK go to private schools.

@MrsColon

At that age it's not possible to tell how bright they are - all they can do is weed out those with more obvious SEN. It doesn't sound like a nice or inclusive school where you child will mix with a wide range of other children - it sounds narrow and unpleasant.

@MrsColon

This is spot on!

@Lily7050

All inclusive non-selective primaries take as many pupils as they can and schools become overcrowded. Yes, there is no guarantee to get place there as they give priority to siblings of current pupils. And what about state faith schools? They choose pupils on the basis of religion. I do not understand the logic of faith schools: they are funded from the state budget which is built using taxpayers money. I pay lots of taxes yet my child will not be accepted in any of these schools. On the other side we do not want to send a child to a religious school. So far we identified just one state school which is non-religious and we live within their catchment area. That's why we are looking into private schools. And btw, 7% of children in the UK go to private schools.

The points on this thread haven't been anti-private schools (that's a whole different debate), but they're anti-academically-selective-at-3-or-4-years-old. That is way too young to making judgements on a child's academic potential!

[quote JumperandJacket]@Clymene Do you live in London, btw?[/quote]
Ha just seen this! Not any more, no but as a Londoner I totally recognise the head tossing 'oh you wouldn't understand' attitude

Are you aware that London schools (I mean the ones with the poor people in them) have much higher level of investment than schools in the rest of the country? Arguably, they should be better resourced than schools anywhere else.

Back to the OP though. Any school which rejects a 4 year old because they've not been tutored shouldn't be teaching. Education is about learning. I think a lot of people have forgotten that.

@Clymene I have no idea why you’re being so bizarrely rude. You misunderstood my earlier post, as I’ve said. I asked whether you lived in London because, if you did, you would know that private primaries are generally selective because they’re so over-subscribed.

@Rockhopper81: my understanding is different schools select on different criteria. I was told Thomas's select outgoing children.
"Academically selective" try to select quick learners. Their curriculum usually is one or even two years ahead of national curriculum. Some schools exit out children who cannot cope with their pace.

@JumperandJacket I’ve lived in London for 20 years and have 2 children going through the education system here - I had honestly never heard of a 4+ selection process until reading this thread. Have to admit that it’s a pretty niche thing to test and evaluate a child who’s barely out of nappies.

[quote JumperandJacket]@Clymene I have no idea why you’re being so bizarrely rude. You misunderstood my earlier post, as I’ve said. I asked whether you lived in London because, if you did, you would know that private primaries are generally selective because they’re so over-subscribed.[/quote]
You worded your post badly. I didn't misunderstand. I missed your clarification.

Any school - or parents - who think that a 4 year old needs a tutor are just wrong.

Like I said, I wonder why so many parents feel they need to out their children through this process. Or why they want to put themselves through it. I don't get it. Genuinely.

And I wasn't being 'bizarrely rude'. Why did you ask if I lived in London unless to imply there was something special about raising children there that I couldn't possibly understand?

What did you mean?

It makes me so sad to think of such small children being tutored to get them in to selective academic primary schools.

I work in early years and honestly, I think the best you can do for your child is read to them and offer them normal childhood experiences. Painting, sand, water play, baking, playing out in the forest/beach/meadow/stream/Park whatever Outdoor space you have locally, give your child opportunities to play and interact with other people Children and other adults, encouraging sharing and turn taking And imaginative play.

Tbh the only experience I have of tutoring is dds gcse maths tutor. What kind of thing are tutors advertising that they teach 4 year olds?

@Clymene My post said “They are normal primary schools in the sense that once you’re there, they’re normal. These schools are massively over-subscribed. What would you like them to do?” How you misinterpreted that I have no idea.

As I’ve said, I asked whether you lived in London because you didn’t seem to know that this was a normal process for London independent primaries. Generally people post on the education boards because they’re looking for advice and support from people who have relevant experience, not snide remarks from the ill-informed.

@MrsColon

At that age it's not possible to tell how bright they are - all they can do is weed out those with more obvious SEN. It doesn't sound like a nice or inclusive school where you child will mix with a wide range of other children - it sounds narrow and unpleasant.

Yep. People are in effect paying to ensure their child is educated alongside the wealthy well behaved bright other children who can also use scissors and have a range of suitable resources at home to practice with. They'll then only mix in those circles. They'll do very well but have a very skewed view of life. They excel all round. They'll end up running the country or some major business employing others who didn't have this. It's 2021 but life is still the same as 20 years ago. OP. You are lucky enough to have this option. Your child will do fine

[quote JumperandJacket]@Clymene My post said “They are normal primary schools in the sense that once you’re there, they’re normal. These schools are massively over-subscribed. What would you like them to do?” How you misinterpreted that I have no idea.

As I’ve said, I asked whether you lived in London because you didn’t seem to know that this was a normal process for London independent primaries. Generally people post on the education boards because they’re looking for advice and support from people who have relevant experience, not snide remarks from the ill-informed.[/quote]
I'm more than happy to make snide remarks about people who out tiny children under immense pressure. It's horrible.

You want him to attend a school that assesses at 4??? You are the problem. State school is the answer

Wow! I had no idea that there were any schools that were selective at 4!! Especially when pupils develop at considerably different speeds up until around 6! The world has gone mad! Sadly, OP, you are feeding into it!! A tutor for 4+ assessments?!

“Yep. People are in effect paying to ensure their child is educated alongside the wealthy well behaved bright other children who can also use scissors and have a range of suitable resources at home to practice with.
They'll then only mix in those circles.”

This - it is social, not academic selection to do admission assessments at this age (brought up kids for 5 years in North London and have a PhD in education studies, before anyone starts demanding my credentials)

The issue is that if, at 4, your DS does not “pass” assessment into a school without tutoring, he is unlikely to thrive at such a school.

They are not 'normal primary schools' as the DC that go do not get exposed to and learn about whole sections of society & types of families that don't get a toe in the door.
Not sure many free school meals will he dished out to children for whom it's their only hot meals of the week. Not sure many refugee or traveller families will attend. Not sure how many children will need SEN support. Not even sure they'd be many larger families with 4+ children either as very few could afford too private education for 4/5/6/7 children.
State schools in London / any city are a much more rich diverse environment in this respect.

I have two children in London private schools both did the 4 plus. DC1 is summer born and performed terribly he was just too young and wanted me there. Literally howled when away from me. I had to go into the room at one school. I think they are all mainly looking for eager, independent children. A few years down the line and DC1 is one of the most academic children in his year. DC2, a September baby, sailed through the 4 plus at all the most selective schools despite being ill throughout the testing period. I think tutoring at this age is a total waste of time. Just put your child forward and hope for the best. Some of those that were extremely prepped and could read at the assessments and generally performed on the day are fairly average now.