Small and good VS big and modern

[Smurftastic]

The time has come to pick my DD'sprimary school and I'm really struggling! I'm in the UK but born abroad so I haven't gone through British school system and don't really know what to look at.

Our catchment school is average in results and enormous in size, my daughter's preschool teachers think she'd do much better in a smaller setting.

We've narrowed it down to two first choices.

Choice 1:
Very small school, 10 minute drive with traffic.
One form entry, about 20 children per class
Results in top 1% nationally, but the school is a bit run down and doesn't really offer any extras.They have 30 minutes (!) French per week starting at KS2
It is Catholic and as much as we're not really religious, I was brought up Catholic and we like the ethos and traditions- 50% of children attending are not Catholic
It's undersubscribed so we should get a place should we choose it.

Choice 2:
Average size school, easy 5 minute drive away near DH's current work place, so they could drive together
Two form entry, 30 children per class
Average tests results, but lots of extra facilities and after school clubs
French lessons start at KS1
Non religious although they seem not very traditional which I don't like as I'm worried about them being very "woke" (don't want to get into discussion about it, just think they might teach what I don't like)
It's oversubscribed despite being near so we might not get in anyway

What I didn't think about is that Choice 2, being more locally, would mean school friends are more likely to be from the same area which apparentlyis a big deal? Is my daughter going to miss out on friendships if we pick the schoolout of our area?
Which school would offer better support should my daughter continue working a bit ahead in some areas as she is currently- small academic one, or bigger with lots of facilities?
Daughter is quite shy so I don't want her to get lost among more extroverted children, but is she going to 'outgrow' the small school in a few years?
I know a teacher who works in Choice 1 and she recommends it.

Sorry about the wall of text, it's all very new to me. Not sure what I should be taking into account.

I would pick choice 2. Bigger school doesn't mean shy children will get left behind. Both mine aren't extroverted and are quiet. They both thrive in their current two-form entry school. The problem with the smaller school is friendship as far as I see. It's further and likely you'll have around only 10 girls per year.

As for support for more advanced children. Mine is outstanding and have streams, but I think the best support is from the parents. DH spent a lot of time working with DC on extra school work. Like SAT mocks, CGP books. Another example is DC1 does music lessons at school with the county music service. They have lessons in groups of 3. This week, the teacher asked them to play D minor scale and DC1 and another child can do it. Turns out the other child has music lessons out of school (and DC1 does extra with me). You can do much to support your child in extra learning and they don't all have to be academic work. It can be music, sports, drama or dance.

Local school and friends gets my vote

And I would go for what you call ‘woke’ over a religious school every day - the religious school might have very odd lessons about sex and relationships which won’t provide your children with a realistic understanding of the real world they are going to live in.

20 children per class isn't usually financially viable long term.

I've found 60 children per year to be about the perfect size... Big enough to find friends, but small enough to allow the different year groups to mix for some activities.

To add... my children have attended 4/5 schools now, varying from 15 per year to 120 per year!

@Placido

And I would go for what you call ‘woke’ over a religious school every day - the religious school might have very odd lessons about sex and relationships which won’t provide your children with a realistic understanding of the real world they are going to live in.

I genuinely don't know- do they not teach about sex at religious schools? I'm saying it as a person who went to a 'religious' school abroad and we still had to learn all ins and outs .

@Aroundtheworldin80moves that's a lot of schools to go through! I'll trust your experience. Funding is not something I'd think of myself either.

A few years ago I would have said pick the local school but it wasn’t the right choice for my ds who is now thriving in a smaller school. But it’s right for my dd, and I’ll be sending her to a big secondary with lots of facilities too.

It sounds like you’re leaning towards the first one and I’d suggest you trust your intuition for now. If you need to move her later it won’t be the end of the world.

@Smurftastic They won't be teaching about gay relationships though which as you know is a very important part of a child's learning in order to start to understand their own sexuality and the world which they are entering which is accepting of gay relationships and gay parenting.

@thelegohooverer How can I tell if my daughter will thrive in Choice 1 more? I might be biased as we visited this school and it was extremely friendly. Still waiting for open days of Choice 2.

I was toured by the head herself and she struck me as extremely caring person.

How much do results really matter if they're both Ofsted 'good'? Choice 2 doesn't have any bad results, just all average.

I would hold off making a decision until you have physically visited choice 2.

I can't offer any constructive advice as I am having the same dilemma trying to choose between a 1 form Catholic school and a a 2 form non-faith school. I keep changing my mind on a daily basis.

I did have a chat with my daughter's preschool teacher to see which one she felt would be the best fit, which was insightful.

[quote Placido]@Smurftastic They won't be teaching about gay relationships though which as you know is a very important part of a child's learning in order to start to understand their own sexuality and the world which they are entering which is accepting of gay relationships and gay parenting.[/quote]
AT ALL? That is a bit odd! My daughter is not even 4 and she already knows some children have 2 mummies or 2 daddies.

I think results are a very personal decision whether it helps inform choices. For us it is important, but I know of other parents who have chosen schools based on the feel of it more than anything else.

@glitterbug87 Yes we'll definitely wait with making a decision until we see Choice 2. I'm wondering what I should be paying attention to/ asking, as I've already learned a few things on this thread!

I already talked to DD's teachers, they definitely think to try an outside catchment school, one of them said she almost sent her sons to a great Catholic school out of catchment, but changed her mind for a more local school due to friendship groups- that was some years ago now.

Nice to see someone in a similar situation, I'll keep fingers crossed for both of us

@Smurftastic I would definitely check. I have friends who swerved the local school and picked one that gave an 'edited' version of sexual curriculum that fitted with their religious ideas.

Friendships are our dilemma too. Whilst the Catholic school for us is in the same town and about a 15 minute walk away, the catchment serves 3 towns and people keep saying "she won't have any local friends!!" The pull of the Catholic school is that they have great results and the Head is very strong and proactive. The pull of the larger school is the friendship groups, not so great results, but with more clubs on offer.

Sorry you're having this dilemma too. I have literally driven myself mad with it!

Where children come from all over and parents actively take a child to a faith school, you would expect better results. They select by religion. They are possibly not seeing a full range of SEN or lower ability children. Just one or two can drastically alter results even in a 2 form entry school.

Most schools follow a set curriculum for PHSE. I always feel parents can go to church if they want religion. More clubs, wider choice of friends and more teachers to team teach or have specialisms is great.

If a head doesn’t teach why does it matter if they are friendly? Of course they are. 20 per class is not financially viable. No wonder it’s shabby. The church owns the buildings so they are not investing. Choice 2 is better.

@TizerorFizz All valid points about Choice 2, however most children at Choice 1 are very local and it's a mixed area with more than average poor families- both exam results and progress scores are very high, which looks to me like some solid teaching! Not helpful I know

Yes I’m sure it is. But you did say choice 1 took from a wider area. It also will select on religion. It’s got 10 places free per year so it’s financier are very short of money. If it’s so good, why isn’t it more popular?

@TizerorFizz

Yes I’m sure it is. But you did say choice 1 took from a wider area. It also will select on religion. It’s got 10 places free per year so it’s financier are very short of money. If it’s so good, why isn’t it more popular?

I'm also wondering why it's not more popular- might be the fact it's surrounded by lots of similar schools, including 3 other Catholic schools, which are in 'better' areas? No idea, but there must be a reason.

You are clearly biased towards option 1 atm, but it's not a fair comparison until you've visited option 2.

I was choosing a primary school this time last year (DC1 recently started reception) and put a lot of thought into it (probably overthought it ). Anyway here are my thoughts for what they're worth:

• Consider how recent the Ofsted inspections are and whether there have been any key changes since then (eg change in headteacher). Most schools are Ofsted rated good, if they're rated outstanding they won't get inspected again for years and years, so standards can slip, whereas schools that are rated as requiring improvement can often put a lot of effort and resources into improving things.
• Results data is out of date due to covid, they haven't published any since 2019, so again, a lot could have changed since then. I didn't just look at results but also things like % of children achieving above average and also looked at results in the context of other data (eg % of children entitled to free school meals, as a higher percentage would indicate a more disadvantaged area).
• Think about what's important to you in terms of your priorities for your DD's primary education and the kind of school she attends. Have a few key questions to ask when you visit or talk to the headteacher/EYFS lead. Your questions might be different but I asked how they meet the needs of individual children including gifted&talent and SEND, how they look after the children's well-being, how they identify and tackle bullying.

Proximity was a consideration, we have lots of primary schools near us so I ruled out anywhere more than a mile away. Mainly for practical reasons - you do the school run 10 times a week! But also to be near friends.

And I considered things like outside space (our closest school didn't have much of it, our preferred school has a huge playground with lots of space to run around, and one of our choices had a forest school area).

See if you can talk to people who know the schools; parents of children at the school, teachers or other staff, governors... but they should be people with current knowledge and not opinions based on previous experience and general reputation which can become out of date pretty quickly.

Once you've done the visits and looked at all the information, go with your gut feeling. I had a clear first choice but was torn between second and third. I wrote a list of pros and cons of each school which helped but I did go with gut feeling. Luckily we got our first choice.

Based on what you've told us so far, I would share PP's concerns that 20 is a very small class size, which means the school will have limited resources and your DC might not have enough classmates to find "her people". Plus the move to secondary will be a bit of a shock to the system! (I should say my DC only has 1 class of 30 in his year, and I would have preferred 2 classes ie 60 in total, but it wasn't a dealbreaker for me.)

The government web site has a lot of data on it from previous years. Yes, there can be changes, and some schools face massive issues which they need to overcome, but often good schools remain fairly consistent. Schools in and out of RI don’t.

It’s also very difficult to look at sats results without looking at the background of the DC. Raw results tell you little. If every parent had a professional job you would expect much better results than an area where few had been to university and mostly had non professional
jobs. You might see great progress though.

You might also want to consider where you, as parents, see yourselves fitting in. At the RC school or not? Where is your child likely to find DC like them? I notice my local junior school had only 5 DC out of 92 who were lower achievers. In other schools, this figure would be higher. If you think your child is bright, what are the number of higher achievers?

Lots can change in a school between YR and Y6. As they get older DC need more. I would therefore also consider sport, music, drama and extra opportunities as DC progress through the school. A cosy YR isn’t the breadth of education you should base your judgement on.

All very good points.

@TizerorFizz
I don't want to choose the tiny school just because my DD would prefer it now, only to feel bored in a few years...
Choice 1 has a very high % of children in receipt of benefits- that's quite deprived then! Is that something bad to look out for?
Choice 2 has lower than average % of free school meals.