Small and good VS big and modern

[Smurftastic]

The time has come to pick my DD'sprimary school and I'm really struggling! I'm in the UK but born abroad so I haven't gone through British school system and don't really know what to look at.

Our catchment school is average in results and enormous in size, my daughter's preschool teachers think she'd do much better in a smaller setting.

We've narrowed it down to two first choices.

Choice 1:
Very small school, 10 minute drive with traffic.
One form entry, about 20 children per class
Results in top 1% nationally, but the school is a bit run down and doesn't really offer any extras.They have 30 minutes (!) French per week starting at KS2
It is Catholic and as much as we're not really religious, I was brought up Catholic and we like the ethos and traditions- 50% of children attending are not Catholic
It's undersubscribed so we should get a place should we choose it.

Choice 2:
Average size school, easy 5 minute drive away near DH's current work place, so they could drive together
Two form entry, 30 children per class
Average tests results, but lots of extra facilities and after school clubs
French lessons start at KS1
Non religious although they seem not very traditional which I don't like as I'm worried about them being very "woke" (don't want to get into discussion about it, just think they might teach what I don't like)
It's oversubscribed despite being near so we might not get in anyway

What I didn't think about is that Choice 2, being more locally, would mean school friends are more likely to be from the same area which apparentlyis a big deal? Is my daughter going to miss out on friendships if we pick the schoolout of our area?
Which school would offer better support should my daughter continue working a bit ahead in some areas as she is currently- small academic one, or bigger with lots of facilities?
Daughter is quite shy so I don't want her to get lost among more extroverted children, but is she going to 'outgrow' the small school in a few years?
I know a teacher who works in Choice 1 and she recommends it.

Sorry about the wall of text, it's all very new to me. Not sure what I should be taking into account.

Just to give you my perspective of a small primary, as many people are very negative about them.
DD (7) attends a tiny village primary. There are 7 students in her year & she is in a mixed year class (R, Yr1 & Yr2). There are less than 50 pupils in the entire school & only two classes. When we were looking at schools, the idea of such a small school seemed incredibly odd & I couldn't understand how it would work. After seeing our standard 1 form entry catchment school I was very underwhelmed, so decided to visit the tiny village school which is out of catchment but only 5 min drive on country lanes.
It was & is wonderful! Yes, it doesn't have wraparound care, tons of clubs, a vast library, IT suite or even a hall but what it does have are amazing teachers, a head who is wonderful & a fantastic school community. All the children know & play together. They do welly walks & forest school every week; swimming & PE at the local sports centre weekly, as well as on the school field & village green. They can do whole school trips as only need one coach. We have a very active PTA that organises fun events like parties, Christmas presents & a Santa visit, ice lollies in the summer etc & the Head does lots too. We have some sports clubs after school, & due to the size of classes every child gets a go, not just the most able. They attend sports events locally & join with other village schools to form larger teams.
In terms of dealing with childrens differing abilities, if they are overachieving the teachers can sit them with the year group above & give them more advanced work & likewise with those having difficulties. The teacher & TA ratio is 1 teacher & 2 TAs to classes of under 25 pupils.
With regards to friendships my DD has friends across the years. She has flourished there, loves it & so do we. All the parents think it's the best school locally. And when I talk to friends with children at other local schools & find out they don't do half what our school do/provide despite being bigger, I'm so glad we went for it. So not all small schools are in financial difficulties, don't offer opportunities & are awful for friendships. Honestly, visit as many as you can & go with your gut.

I'm none the wiser! Here is some data from my Choice 1 tiny school, vs large catchment school. Choice 1 school has 40% children on free school meals, catchment about 24%.

The tiny school presents difficulties when moving up to secondary. Where I live the tiny schools are infant only which isn’t so bad. They are limiting when so small on a number of fronts. I don’t think I value friendships over all years as being particularly useful. If feeds the big family narrative but these friendships won’t last when the older ones leave.

I would say small infants is ok but some DC near me went to one and they were nowhere near as advanced in terms of socialising, music or confidence as the DC at the bigger infant when they some arrived at the junior in y3. I would only accept 7 in a year if I was in a very rural area with nothing else.

My DDs were not sporty but tiny schools cannot really have teams or effective competition. Music cannot be great either. These might not matter but they did to me and my DDs. Each to their own though but I think the effectiveness of tiny schools wains after y2.

Just thought I'd update- I just got back from big school's (catchment) open days. It wasn't very busy as they advertised late due to covid cases and I can see why- reception is 3 classroom's joined together into one, huge room with 75 kids in!

They were perfectly nice but I feel like it's way too big for my daughter.
I know some of you prefer big schools but I don't know if it's a right choice for her.

They have open 'play' days in January we might try to attend.
There's one more school I'm trying to visit but I might not be able to as I missed the open days .

My DD1 was in a classroom like this. It was called a hen and chickens. One large room and smaller quiet rooms off it. I can see if doesn’t suit every child though. But our school was brilliant and confident DC are fine. We had 66 DC and 2 teachers. I guess you would get 3 teachers? However if it’s not suitable, it’s not. It was why a few people rejected our school but elsewhere wasn’t as good. If you can get a good school smaller then go for it.

@TizerorFizz this school doesn't even have quiet areas, all the rooms are free flow and huge. I think I wouldn't like it for myself and I'm way more outgoing than my daughter is right now.

I am surprised if doesn’t have zones. It’s not on to have play in all areas.

I was coming on to say i would choose option 1 easily.

Our DS is confident (once settled in an environment)and bright, but hates lots of hustle and bustle and it would not bring out the best in him. He would stay shy, feeling its all a little too much.

We chose a small school, he loves his class and is gaining more and more confidence, it also felt alot more close and caring.

I was schooled alot futher than a "10min drive in traffic" away from my school and it never stopped me seeing my friends from school.

Im glad you feel comfortable with your choice, you really do get that feeling when you visit.

@readwhatiactuallysay I wish I could feel comfortable with my initial choice, but after reading some comments on here regarding small friendship pool, low funding and proportion of free school meals I am still undecided

@smurftastic - one of the reasons we went for a 2 form entry from a funding perspective, clubs and activities etc. Difficult to know whether we have made the right choice until they start. HOwever, what helped us come to a decision was one school is always under subscribed so it would be easier to move her one way rather than the other if we didn't like the school.

Depends on the school and depends on the child. Mine now are at a very very small school (15 per year group, double year group classes) which MN would view as far too small. Moved them from a 2 form entry juniors (they'd been to the attached infants which was superb) which is going downhill rapidly, has a lot of very entitled middle class parents thinking their children are just perfect and never to be questioned - and a fucking huge bullying problem where the school response tends to be to just manage out the victim for a quiet life.

Main selling point wasn't so much the size of the school - but the headteachers (same for the infant school) who were very approachable, open with how things are done and really obviously cared about the kids - the HT of the juniors I had never warmed to and my initial impressions I'd ignored proved to be right over the long term). I'd listened to the MN comments on the size of the school - but the small scale has helped DD2, who had been badly bullied and pretty much lost last year, who has benefitted from the self confidence boost of being one of the older ones in her mixed year group class, and being able to mix outside of her year group and get to know kids across the whole school. DD1 is taking more time to settle - but that's DD1 generally.

More clubs and activities going on than at the bigger school (which is very much still in the "we have a football club for the boys and netball for the girls and you don't need anything else" mentality) - the drawback is that they have to work around the lack of a hall at times - but they were open about that from the outset.

I think it would have been probably best to think about schools earlier but we were busy having a new baby, and we also had a bereavement in family ...

The way things are looking, Choice 1 is still on the list. We decided we'll probably be moving closer to that part of town as we need a bigger house.
There's another, similar school near there, but we might not get a place- It's also 1 form Catholic, but class sizes oscillate around 28 children and it's a bit more affluent. I prefer the foreign language they teach. I'll call them later in the week. Downside is 70% of children there are Catholic, we're only mildly Catholic!

Choice 1 is 50% Catholic and quite relaxed about it (I know a parent there), but sometimes class sizes are very small and it's in a mixed area- I didn't think it was such an issue previously, but I'm now slightly concerned .... I'm hoping that they might get more children in as they have fantastic exam results, top 8% nationally.

Feeling quite lost, but at least DH and I discussed our housing situation, so unlikely to choose our current 3-form entry catchment school as a first choice.

@CoffeeWithCheese thank you very much for sharing your experience, the way MN is about small schools I'm surprised there are any left!

Due to bitter personal experience I am very wary of small schools and classes. Often people make out they are a good thing - not if you don’t get on with the other kids or they are mean. You need a nice deep friendship pool so your child has lots of options. Particularly for girls.

[quote Smurftastic]@CoffeeWithCheese thank you very much for sharing your experience, the way MN is about small schools I'm surprised there are any left![/quote]
It's really odd on MN about small state schools. Private schools are lauded for their small class sizes & higher pupil/teacher ratios but in state schools it's apparently a bad thing?? Makes no sense.
Kids can fall out in any class size & just because it's a class of 30 doesn't mean your child will make friends or won't fall out with the ones they have.
Small class/year groups in small state schools are often mixed across years giving the pupils the opportunity to make friends across the age ranges. My DD has friends in every year group - I didn't at her age in my average sized school, & I had no issues with making friends.
Honestly there are hundreds of small schools across the country, especially in rural areas (where I am) but according to MN they're all financially unstable, friendless backwaters with no opportunities for the kids! It's amazing that any child from a rural area who attends a small school manages to achieve anything!

My DC are in a 1 class per year school with average 28 children. Village school, centre of excellence with lots of 'extras'. Fantastic head who pushes the advanced and really supports the struggling. People will have personal preferences, but look at the whole picture - the head teacher can be key. Our old head had got set in his ways, new one has modernised and is a fab role model. Things like ease of parking can seem unimportant, but when you're doing it everyday it's something to consider. As choice 1 is undersubscribed, could you put it as option 2 on the form and then put new Catholic as option 1. If when you eventually visit it's not right, you'd prob still be able to get into option 2.

Will the Catholic children at the smaller school go to a secondary that your child won't be able to go too? Just thinking long term friendships

@happytoday73 Might be a bit of a problem with Choice 1, the new Catholic school I found less so, as most children go to a very good local high school. We didn't consider it before due to location, DH just got a new job opportunity that means we can move! Not great timing!

@MrsToadflax
You might have a good idea here, providing the headteacher at that school is OK.
The more I think about it the more I hope the New Catholic ( NC ) could look good- not sure if they'll let me see it though as I missed the open days.

The dislike of small schools on here is entirely by those who send their kids to big schools & have no experience whatsoever of small ones. It’s assumptions that kids will fall out & be bullied in small schools. The assumption there is a lack of resources or lack of books or lack of clubs. Or lack of money. This assumption high school will be horrendous for them.

Well, here’s my experience. I went to a tiny village school. I loved school, I had friends of all ages & I achieved above average SATS in yr6. I transitioned to high school just fine. It was a shock going to an enormous school but primary taught us a real sense of confidence & we had firm friendships that stuck (& have still stuck 30 years later) & served us well moving up. By the second or third week, I’d made new friends, found my way around & adjusted. The transition period is a tiny part of the 5 years at high school. It’s hardly something to worry about. Kids settle.

Kids also fall out if 30 kids or 90 per year. Sure, they can be moved away from each other but the kids are still there at lunch & in the playground etc. For me, it taught me to be resilient & how to move on from arguments. I did have fall outs of course but the teachers spotted it every time & would support us in making up. Our class was a team & bullying non existent. Maybe I was lucky but I’ve always thought the small school thing was actually a real positive on my outlook of friendships.

My own DD goes to a one form entry & it’s fantastic. Friendly, relaxed but high achieving. DD has friends across different year groups and has two buddies in yr 5&6 who run & give her a hug every morning & tell her to come play at lunch (school have a buddy system). The school is up to date with smart boards & laptops etc and has a small but well stocked library. They run after school clubs (although they’ve been a bit inconsistent since covid) & also have an on sight, much loved after school club. They have fantastic links to the local village, the kids go down to the local market to practice using money, they visit the local library regularly, local parks as a treat in summer, they help run a community allotment .. They’ve handled covid really well. We’ve had a big outbreak this term & while I suspect a bit chaotic for school, the impact to the kids & parents has been minimal. We haven’t had any Christmas stuff cancelled yet. They did an all school trip to a panto last week, we’ve got the nativity this afternoon with parents in. The KS2 carol concert is on Wednesday in a local park. And the Christmas fayre is at the weekend.. the big schools round us have cancelled everything..

DD has a troublesome boy in her class. Mostly just hyperactive behaviour & occasional hitting. School are very aware & action points are in play at the moment .. there is nowhere to move him but even if there was, he’d get moved to bother children in another class. Not really solving anything. Just my problem but creating one for other parents! School are instead working hard to improve his behaviour & supporting his parents hugely with getting him assessed. I think that’s good..

Small schools can be great. I never really looked at stats for my DD other than a brief check they were reasonable. Her childhood is more important. Her happiness & feeling of belonging. Friendships & kindness. Yes, I want her to achieve and I believe most good schools will do just that. If she’s happy & settled, then she’ll love going& want to learn. And sure enough, she adores school & she is incredibly keen to learn! Just go with where you think your child will be happiest!

Agree that the priority is where they will be happiest not scrutinising data. Closer the better so pals nearby and your family is in the community.

But personally wouldn’t want a Dd of mine in a class with fewer than 8 other girls at an absolute minimum. I was ok at our tiny village school but my poor sister was made utterly miserable by an extremely troubled “friend” who she was basically stuck with for literally years as there were no other groups of girls as only 3 girls in the class. She’s naturally a gregarious person but had a very very unhappy time indeed.

We have now put in our application - we went for the 60 intake over the Catholic 30 intake. I am not sure if our decision-making process will help you. We went back and forth for weeks and weeks and it literally drove me bonkers.

However, in the end I threw out all of the data and thought about where would my DD be happiest. To put in context our DD is an only child so this helped with our decision. I was concerned that a smaller school with a class of 30 (most years around 22 max) would limit her socially. I was also concerned about what would happen if there was a gender imbalance in the class with only a handful of girls in the class. I then looked to see what extra curricular clubs etc was on offer and the larger school won hands down. Whilst I still do prefer the reception set up of the Catholic school as it was so bright and airy with a wonderfully huge library with soft play and I like the idea of smaller class sizes, I had to think beyond the first few years and what would she want to be doing in say years 3 / 4 / 5 etc.

The 60 intake school has also been a consistently good school. The Catholic one has been in and out of requiring improvement on at least 5 separate occasions. Whilst it is doing well now due to the Head, I had too many concerns about what would happen if this Head was to leave. I had also found an interview he had given to an educational magazine about turning the school around and he said that one of the biggest challenges was not the behaviour of the children, but that of the parents who didn't appear to value education / very high levels of absences from the school and lack of engagement. That really rang alarm bells for me so we thought ok we have a perfectly good decent school a few yards from our house in a good catchment area and whilst perhaps it will be a very middle-class experience with lack of opportunity culturally. for us it was the safest bet as I wasn't prepared to gamble my daughter's education on a school that could revert back to RI once this turnaround Head left.

I also think you have to be pretty committed to send your child to a faith school if you are doing so in order to continue their secondary education within a faith school. This was another consideration and our local Catholic catchment would have been 1 hour each way daily. Given that most of the kids at the Catholic primary are non-catholic (only 14%) again the local friendship card came into play.

@MiddleAgedLurker

Will add my experience for what it's worth. DC1 went to local small C of E school. Many of my friends' children went too, and got on fine. DC1 could be non-compliant and difficult (and he could be lovely, quirky and fun too) and was v unhappy there. We moved him to a bigger school with excellent special needs provision, where they also had different teachers for different subjects. He was miles happier. DC2 also went to the bigger school, mainly for logistics reasons, but I think she would have been fine in the smaller one because she was biddable and eager to please. I think a child who is a bit 'different' might be absorbed better in a big school. DC1 blossomed and became much more prepared to fit in. Today they're both lovely young adults btw :-) So I guess it's horses for courses. My take home from this was start with your child's personality and don't be afraid to change schools if things don't work out.

This!

We will give it a year and if we feel we have made the wrong choice, we will move her. Worth thinking which way it is easier to move as well 0 in our case easier to move from the large school to the Catholic one than it would be to move from the Catholic one to the large school (always oversubscribed).

It’s very difficult as you have no way of knowing what their class / year will be like! You can have a lovely school but an unfortunate class that doesn’t really work. My friend moved her Dd from a one class entry ad boy heavy class and the few girls there were left her Dd out. She has nothing but praise for the school not their fault! Echo the dont be afraid to move if you do get a duff class and your child isn’t thriving. Everyone I know that has moved a child has been pleased they did.

A little update- I just called the 'new' Catholic school we were looking at and the receptionist was a bit odd, from lack of better words! It's a school in a posh area, rated 'outstanding' and I wanted to leave my details to talk to a reception teacher, instead she said she can answer all my questions.
So I asked her questions, she answered them albeit not with much detail and didn't want to take my details! When I asked if I can view the school she said to call in January, which I suppose it's fair enough seeing how close to Christmas it is.
AIBU to be a bit thrown off or am I being judgemental? Don't really care it's 'outstanding' as the inspection was yonks ago, hope they're not feeling a bit too full of themselves!