Small and good VS big and modern

[Smurftastic]

The time has come to pick my DD'sprimary school and I'm really struggling! I'm in the UK but born abroad so I haven't gone through British school system and don't really know what to look at.

Our catchment school is average in results and enormous in size, my daughter's preschool teachers think she'd do much better in a smaller setting.

We've narrowed it down to two first choices.

Choice 1:
Very small school, 10 minute drive with traffic.
One form entry, about 20 children per class
Results in top 1% nationally, but the school is a bit run down and doesn't really offer any extras.They have 30 minutes (!) French per week starting at KS2
It is Catholic and as much as we're not really religious, I was brought up Catholic and we like the ethos and traditions- 50% of children attending are not Catholic
It's undersubscribed so we should get a place should we choose it.

Choice 2:
Average size school, easy 5 minute drive away near DH's current work place, so they could drive together
Two form entry, 30 children per class
Average tests results, but lots of extra facilities and after school clubs
French lessons start at KS1
Non religious although they seem not very traditional which I don't like as I'm worried about them being very "woke" (don't want to get into discussion about it, just think they might teach what I don't like)
It's oversubscribed despite being near so we might not get in anyway

What I didn't think about is that Choice 2, being more locally, would mean school friends are more likely to be from the same area which apparentlyis a big deal? Is my daughter going to miss out on friendships if we pick the schoolout of our area?
Which school would offer better support should my daughter continue working a bit ahead in some areas as she is currently- small academic one, or bigger with lots of facilities?
Daughter is quite shy so I don't want her to get lost among more extroverted children, but is she going to 'outgrow' the small school in a few years?
I know a teacher who works in Choice 1 and she recommends it.

Sorry about the wall of text, it's all very new to me. Not sure what I should be taking into account.

Whether it's "bad" depends on how much of a snob you are... I was surprised to find that many of my friends and acquaintances wanted to send their children to the naice middle class school despite being supposedly left-leaning.

Schools get extra funding for children who are eligible for free school meals (the pupil premium) and they can use it how they want, so as a general rule most of the children will benefit.

Realistically, there tends to be more issues at home with lower income families, obviously there can be issues whatever the income/class, but children from more disadvantaged backgrounds might struggle a bit more for whatever reason...

Personally I wanted my DC to mix with a diverse range of children in terms of class, income, ethnicity, religion, etc, so the higher than average FSM didn't put me off. We are firmly "middle class" ourselves as are some of the other families but not all by any means.

@NameChange30 Thank you, I'll definitely ask those questions, in fact I'm putting them in my notes right now.
Both schools had Ofsted recently, 2018/19, both good.
Choice 1 seems to have high amount of children achieving higher, but one year they had none- I guess it's very easy to change yearly with so few students!
They only have a small outdoor area. I know one teacher and one parent there, they both said it's very good.
Choice 2 have some great Ofsted parent view opinions, whereas Choice 1 still good but less so, but they were both from about 5 years back.

With only 20 in a class, a few DC who under achieve will make a big difference to sats. You need to look at the government web site to look at reading, writing and maths performance over time when compared against similar schools. Just picking one set of results and not comparing them doesn’t tell you a lot.

As a former PP governor I can tell you the best schools do target the pupil premium money on those pupils. Ofsted look at whether it has made a difference in respect of progress for the pp children. Not the others.,Spreading it around is poor practice and should be discouraged.

High fsm puts off lots of parents. You also will find you cannot engineer a certain type of friend for your child. Most schools eventually use seating arrangements in class so DC sit with similar ability DC. This tends to direct friendships. Although one of the most effective ways of improving outcomes for PP children is peer to peer learning. So seating arrangements and teaching style can make a huge difference according to the Sutton Trust.

If a school has less income due to DC not taking up the places, they can get money by having a high number of fsm children to fill the financial gap. What I think is happening at school 1 is that parents don’t like the high fsm situation. They have voted with their feet. Often left leaning rhetoric doesn’t stretch to their own DC. I think you can meet a range of DC in most schools but you cannot force a DC to be best buddies with a child whose family values are very diverse from their own. In school they find like minded friends and don’t see school as a social engineering project to help the less fortunate. Most children are kind, tolerant and happy at most schools. But it’s fair to say parents choose schools where they see parents like them!

"As a former PP governor I can tell you the best schools do target the pupil premium money on those pupils. Ofsted look at whether it has made a difference in respect of progress for the pp children. Not the others.,Spreading it around is poor practice and should be discouraged."

When I said most of the children will benefit, I should have explained more clearly.

Whether a school uses the funding to pay for resources for those children only, or pays for resources that can be used by any children even if they are mostly used by the pupil premium children, either way, all children will benefit. Because if the needs of those children are being met, there will be less disruption for the whole class and the other resources can be shared rather than having to be directed to those children only.

My DCs school sounds a bit like A, apart from it is C of E rather than Catholic. My DDs class is 30 and my DS is 20. It is such a lovely school - a real community where year groups intermingle and the teachers really know the students. I like the 1 form entry, there are still plenty of students to be friends with. Extra curricular isn't as vibrant as some others but my DC do plenty out of school so it doesn't really matter.

Thank you all for your comments, I can see now that I was very biased towards school Choice 1 after talking to the head, who is admittedly very lovely and I'm sure great with children.
Thinking about the distance and fewer opportunities due to lower funding, I'm going to keep looking around.

There's a similar school within walking distance I didn't consider, 1 form entry but about 28 children per class. It has average results and currently 'Requires Improvement', but a friend's child attends and she's positive they're working on their problems. I'll see if I can visit them.

Does anyone have any experience with form entry schools? I think my DD would hate the noise.

Sorry last sentence meant to say '3 form entry schools'

No direct experience, but I didn't personally like the 3 form local one I visited. As we were walking around it was apparent the HT didn;t know the names of the children and when I asked her about how they stretch the more able, her entire answer was geared up around SEN and didn't answer my question. I also found it way too busy, loud and noisy and in all honesty it felt like a child factory. That, however, may just have been this school.

The 3 form entry school is our catchment school, just had a new head a few years ago and went up in Ofsted to 'Good'. I heard good things about it- that they are quite personal despite being so large.
Walking past it during the break gave me a right headache though.

Our local infants school is now 3 form entry. Parents love it. When my DDs went there it was 2. However I really do think most heads will know the children but not if they have only just started! Give the head a chance!

We found a busy but purposeful school was best. We found children fully engaged and a calm environment. However this is an area where DC start school with above average attainment. Many are destined for good universities and parents value education. If a head talks about SEN it’s because they have these children possibly Iarge numbers!

Most schools will see exceptionally gifted children as SEN but they make their own judgements on all children and don’t have policies for the “more able” outside the standard good teaching which assesses accurately and provides work accordingly. All schools should stretch children.

I have visited lots of schools and noisy playgrounds are the norm everywhere. Most schools will provide a quiet area for DC who have sensory issues. However DC do like running around and letting off steam even if parents find it noisy. It’s not really about you as you are not a child. Larger schools often separate out play areas and the breadth of skills in the teaching staff can be a big plus.

3 form here. DC seem to know everyone as do they teachers. 75% of our local primaries are 3 form so quite normal. Teachers like it as loads of sharing of ideas, experience & support. Big pools of friends. Loads clubs etc
They do tend to structure play times & space etc differently so actually the DC aren't swamped. Mine have always known every child in their year and the one above & below.
But not the other years unless siblings.

Going to a local 3 form entry primary means they know most of the children in their local area. This is a huge win. More specialist teachers too. And do remember that 90% of the time they are just with own class of 30 and thus oblivious to rest of the school

My DD is in YR in a 3 form entry school. I've been pleased that it allows flexibility in the teaching. For example, the year group is set for their phonics teaching already and I think that this allows most of the children to be taught at a pace that suits them.
I also feel that a bigger school allows for more flexibility if there are any friendship/bullying issues. Children can always be split up if necessary. Obviously I don't have any experience of a smaller school though!

I am yet to view the 3 form entry school as they've not had open days! Hoping to visit it any day now. It's a bit deprived and their results were below average, but since the change of head they've gone up to average and are rated 'Good'. I watched some videos of the head and he gives me good vibes.

The 2 form entry school that's more local is much more middle class, with average results but more privileged pupils, so their progress scores aren't actually that good. Open days are soon, I'm slightly worried they're form over substance.

The one form entry Catholic school out of our area is very deprived, but with great results. I checked for both disadvantaged pupils and pupils with previous high attainment they have great progress scores. They are very small though with not a lot going on, but very friendly.

@Smurftastic which school do you think has children that your DC will enjoy being friends with - after having 3 DC go through primary I promise you it really is one of the most important things they learn at primary age. Get that right and they will feel happy and settled and enjoy school life and have friends to play with afterwards and at weekends. It’s such a precious stage of life and it goes so quickly, please let them enjoy the simplicity of going to a school where they can have local friends and enjoy all that brings.

@Placido
Thank you- it's easy to get lost in statistics. As a family we're not sure if we're staying in this area in the long term, so having discussion with DH about this now. Will look more into the local schools if we decide to stay.

Did you make a decision?

@theapplesinthetrees I haven't made a decision just yet, but I'm looking at some other schools within walking distance.
Had to cancel going to the 'trendy school's' open days due to whole family having awful colds, but as it's a (short) driving distance as well. I'd rather go more local.

I'm going to the 3 form entry school on Friday, they have average results but apparently pleasant for such a big school- we will see!
Hoping they don't use anything for their PSHE that suggests you have to be a certain way to be a boy or girl, as the 'trendy school' had a lesson plan like this. I know others might disagree but it's a big deal for me. I'll get a chance to ask them.

@TizerorFizz Also wanted to thank you for telling me what questions to ask, I asked at Choice 1 school about special needs and exceptional students, all they talked to me about was special needs!

To be fair, a lot of primary schools do not see exceptional children very often. It is however a huge skill to keep them interested and engaged. Where I was a governor, the maths coordinator said they saw a truly gifted child once every 5 years. However in an affluent area, many DC are very clever. So they need to be taught and challenged appropriately. Hope you are getting nearer a decision!

@TizerorFizz I'm not sure if my daughter is truly 'gifted', I think she might just have a knack for numbers- I'd just like to ensure she's not bored in classroom. My brother was a very smart child and ended up with behavioural issues a he was bored!

*as he was bored of course

Well that’s exactly what schools should avoid: boredom. I truly think most do now. Each child should be assessed regularly and given work that is appropriate and with the right amount of challenge. If a school sees enough bright DC, your DD will be fine. I assume you have looked at the numbers of higher achievers and how well they do in maths Sats. The more with higher scores, the more likely DD will find similar pupils and good teaching.

@TizerorFizz I have, but unfortunately it doesn't lead me to any helpful answers: my local schools are perfectly average (3 form intake school and 1 form intake school), and from my initial choices, the deprived school Choice 1 has fantastic maths results, both progress scores and proportion of high achievers. BUT they're a drive away and tiny class sizes!

A high proportion of high achievers isn’t usual for a deprived area school. Great progress can be but it seems the smaller school does well. Of course this can change as different cohorts move through the school and teachers change. Likewise other schools improve. I think you heed to think of driving to school every day is worth it. What are the reading and writing scores like? Do the larger schools end up setting for maths? Ask about maths teaching. What teaching methods do they use? How do they extend learning? You might get more info from them and they should have a maths policy they might be willing to share.