Phonics

[MummyDolly]

So my little boy can read and write really well, his memory of words is amazing. However when it comes to phonics he cannot grasp them. He cannot sound out words or blend the sounds together.

I have got the same flash cards as his teacher to try and help but I'm just worrying he's going to fall behind in some way.

He's had his ears checked as his teacher asked me if he could hear properly etc

Just don't know what else to do 😬😬

When my youngest started school I asked her teacher at the end of the week how she had settled in, "Oh, she's a lovely little girl. You didn't tell me she could read."
"I didn't know she could read", was my reply.
On the way home, "How did you learn to read?"
"S(older sister) taught me in bed at night."
No idea what method S used, but it seemed to have worked.

i don't understand phonics at all. obviously a good auditory learner as i don't know that i've ever missed not knowing it.

fallfallfall - or anyone else in the same position - what do you do if you come across a word written down that you've never seen before? How do you hear it in your head? How do you know how to say it aloud?

Well dh will use the audio feature most online dictionaries offer. I know what sounds the letters of the alphabet make, start from that point. But nothing like what my grandchildren are learning.

English isn't really that phonetic of a language, certainly not compared to Spanish or Italian.

There are multiple ways to write (graphemes) the same sound (phonemes) like the long 'a' sound in day and rain and various graphemes make different sounds as well like 'ow' in snow vs now.

Even for a child that masters phonics a huge amount of memorisation and word familiarity are need to properly sound out and spell words correctly.

I'm a proponent of synthetic phonics but you can't really be 100% certain of how to pronounce a word you've not heard before in English.

English is phonetic but has a much deeper orthography than languages such as Spanish.

What do you do if you don't have access to a dictionary fallfallfall?

@Norestformrz

English is phonetic but has a much deeper orthography than languages such as Spanish.

A deep orthography is a measure of how nonphonemic a language is!

The greater extent to which a language's graphemes and phonemes don't have a one to one correspondence the less phonetic it clearly is.

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/phonetic

Being able to read and spell well in English requires familiarity with a large number of words in addition to learning phonics and thesis more true for English than many other languages.

Sorry no clue, I have a university education. It’s not hindered me yet.
I’ve never encountered nonphonemic. I’d break it down non phone mic and consider non ph on emic knowing it has to do with phonetics (which I’ve heard and am familiar with) I might ask someone how it’s pronounced but it wouldn’t prevent me from reading it in my mind, and playing with its rhythm.

So you use phonics to read fallfallfall ...most people do without realising it

English doesn't have a one to one correspondence unlike some languages with a shallow orthography which makes it more difficult to learn and the reason it's vital children are taught how it works. This doesn't make it non phonetic. As you have explained, the sounds in English are represented by letters or combination of letters ...

Rudolf Flesch concluded in his 1955 book “Why Johnny Can’t Read” that English is 97.4% phonetic. Denise Eide, in “Uncovering the Logic of English,” states that English is 98% phonetic.

I agree that phonics is the best approach to teaching reading and spelling (as I've already stated).

However, it's silly to ignore that there is more to learning to read and spell in English than phonics because there are far more graphemes than phonemes and many graphemes have more than one way they can be pronounced.

From the link above: "A spelling system can be described as phonetic if you can understand how words are pronounced simply by looking at their spelling." You can't always do so in English which is why it isn't completely phonetic. You can only know that 'cow' isn't pronounced like 'snow' by already knowing the word 'cow' the first time you read it as a child. Similarly knowing when to pronounce 'bow' as in what is in a girl's hair versus 'bow' to the queen can only be deciphered contextually. There are also many words where two pronunciations are equally valid such as for 'banal'. 97% of words being phonetic still means several words on each page of a book require other skills / knowledge to decipher and spelling is even more complex. It's compounded by the fact that a lot of English's non-phonetic words are very commonly used so appear more often when reading.

Being good at reading in English requires a good vocabulary facilitated by parents reading to children from an early age. Similarly, being good at spelling requires extensive practice / memorisation and those who read a lot and regularly and benefit from seeing how words are spelt are better spellers.

Its more than just learning phonics and you're off with nothing else required. Acknowledging that doesn't undermine the fact that phonics is the best teaching approach.

"A spelling system can be described as phonetic if you can understand how words are pronounced simply by looking at their spelling." You can if you know how English works .. English is more complex but that doesn't make it non phonetic

Its more than just learning phonics and you're off with nothing else required. Acknowledging that doesn't undermine the fact that phonics is the best teaching approach.
Of course it is. There are five main elements to reading: phonological awareness, phonics, vocabulary, fluency and comprehension.
But phonics is the foundation, and so many schools still don’t teach it well. I know of many schools who still use mixed methods, and of even more schools who only teach phonics in KS1. Which means that I encounter children in Year 7 who cannot read and schools who have no idea how to rectify this.

Study after study has shown that using synthetic phonics as the only method results in over 95% of children learning to read successfully, with some studies showing success rates of over 99%. No other approach gets anywhere near that success rate. Using mixed methods the success rate falls below 80%, even if phonics is one of the methods used.

Could I ask the posters who seem expert in this area what approach would they use for children who don't seem to learn to read using phonics? From the percentages given above it seems like it doesn't work for up to 5% of children - this is 1/20 still having difficultly. What would you try next?

I ask because one of my children (who also has an asd diagnosis) has had persistent difficulties learning to read. The others had no problem. He found the phonics approach very difficult, the memorisation of the sounds hugely boring. His struggles with reading (and thus at school) ultimately led to school refusal. He is very bright, and could very well appreciate the difficulties he was having compared to his classmates. This affected his self esteem very negatively.

The only approach we have found that works is to simply do lots of reading with him in high interest areas. To try to learn without realising he's learning if you like. To take the pressure off.

While I agree studies show that phonics is the best approach for most children, it certainly doesn't suit everyone.

"While I agree studies show that phonics is the best approach for most children, it certainly doesn't suit everyone."

Unfortunately the evidence is that without phonics reading ability will be severely limited. For reading scientists the evidence that the phonological pathway is used in reading and especially important in beginning reading is about as close to conclusive as research on complex human behavior can get. "To become a reader, one has to develop these phonological paths. There are several ways to do this, but no way has been found to be more effective than explicit decoding instruction (focusing on phonemes — not on cueing systems). Again, why not teach what students need to learn rather than things with no evidence?"

https://blog.learnfasthq.com/how-the-brain-learns-to-read-professor-stanislaus-dehaene

While I agree studies show that phonics is the best approach for most children, it certainly doesn't suit everyone.
Phonics isn’t an approach in itself, it is how we decide written language - by understanding the phoneme/graphemes correspondence. Schools do children a great disservice by declaring that phonics isn’t the ‘right approach’ and then abandoning all efforts. Children who cannot decode words cannot become fluent, independent readers, because they simply do not have the tools to tackle new vocabulary when they encounter it.
A better approach would be to look at different ways of teaching phonics that may appeal to that child.

@Elisheva
Yes, I agree, I suppose what I meant by the phonics approach was the method of teaching in my children's school - using JollyPhonics - learning phonemes, blending etc. JollyPhonics didn't work well for one of my children, though the others were fine.

@Norestformrz
What I've observed is that learning "explicit decoding instruction" doesn't suit every child. It didn't suit one of mine at least. What I'm trying to do now is to get him to use the phonological pathway, but without overt instruction. Sitting learning phonemes most assuredly turned him off reading (to the point of phobia), and it has taken a long time to recover from that.

The link discussed how the brain learns to read. Maybe it's possible that in some cases, especially in a neurodiverse child like mine, things work a bit differently.

I think the dependence on phonics decoding instruction is serving the majority of children well, but this method of teaching the may not be meeting the needs of an overlooked minority.

Sorry about the extra 'the' in the last sentence!

Lizzieant what we know is that explicit instruction is the most effective method for all children, however that doesn't mean they will all learn at the same pace.
If your child can speak and distinguish one word from another then they already know the phonemes of their language. From what you say it sounds as if your child is being taught the relationship between the written symbol and the sound it represents in isolation which is poor practice and doesn't support reading and spelling.
I recommend you look at the free course for parents who want to help their child to learn to read and write https://www.udemy.com/course/help-your-child-to-read-and-write/ https://www.udemy.com/course/help-your-child-to-read-and-write-part-2/

Thank you for your help @Norestformrz, I appreciate it.

However, explicit instruction is not the best method in my DS's case, though he is unusual in this regard I agree. Please believe me when I say this, I know him very well.

I don't think there's one approach that will suit all - especially when it comes to children with asd. There are still children being left behind.

Sorry OP, I've wandered off the track of the thread a little. The whole 'child struggling to learn phonics in the classroom' really resonated with me, and I wish your DS the very best with his learning.

My son has ASD and I've taught numerous children with ASD to read ...

@Norestformrz
I have no doubt that you have, but not everyone's the same. That's my point. Many people with asd do not have issues with reading. However, add a helping of dyslexia and a good dollop of PDA, as in our case, and things become more complicated!

My DS unfortunately developed a phobia around phonics/reading during his first couple of years at school. His asd wasn't diagnosed at that stage and the teaching system just didn't suit him. Phonetic decoding instruction overcomplicated things for him, and he became afraid of reading instead of associating it with enjoyment and fun as he previously had. (The teachers were kind and he had friends at school - it was the struggle with the work that was the main issue. He was well supported at home.)

Years later, his anxiety still goes through the roof if any overt teaching approach is used. He has no intellectual disability, is very bright, but, as is common for people with asd or dyslexia, showed a very spiky profile when assessed by an educational psychologist.

I know his is an unusual case, but he still counts, you know? If I could go back in time I would do things differently regarding schooling and teaching him to read, as the traditional approach did a lot of damage in his case.

As I said your description suggests that it was the instruction rather than the method that was the issue. Phonics should not be taught in isolation

T'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe the method suits the majority, but doesn't suit a small minority.