So parent's evening yet again and I can tell that the teacher is not keen on dd and she is STILL not making any effort

[foxinsocks]

at all. Sigh.

Poor dd. All she really wants to do is be left alone and read books.

But of course, yr 3 is a bit more than that.

They made them all do some sort of NFER test (I have no idea what this means) and she did very well but is plummeting down through the streams and the teacher feels the work she does at school is in no way an indication of the level of work she could be doing.

And err that's it.

We've got extra work to do at home but I'm at a loss really. I just don't know how to encourage her.

It does sound immensely frustrating and counter-productive for your daughter. This is probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but have you tried anything like the Write from the Start programme with your DD? It is not letter formation or writing per se, but helps with pencil control; there are a few threads on it at the moment. It might not be the issue at all of course.

We have a similar situation with DS2 in Y2 now - written output is a problem.

I really believe they need to teach to the ability, not the output, as your DD will just get increasingly demotivated.

I looked at Write from the Start - but I think what has happened with dd is that we have left this quite late and her creativity has been strangled by never producing any work. She's never written stories or letters or anything like that.

I think what we need to do is get her to just write anything. As she's at home today (they are both off sick!) and I'm not at work, I asked her to write a short passage (like a paragraph) about something that interests her and it was like drawing blood out of a stone, but once I had actually got her to do it, I could see that her writing was not THAT bad (ok, some of the 'p' letters were on top of the line and she wrote all over the page but it was all roughly the same shape). If she practised, I think it would improve.

What she is finding hard is actually doing the writing (as this requires quite a lot of effort) and thinking about what to write at the same time iyswim.

I imagine your ds is quite similar singersgirl. They get into the habit of not producing work and then, when they finally have to do it at a later stage (like yr3), they are not expected to still be thinking about the way they are writing (but what they are producing).

DS2 is very similar, but a year younger. He hasn't achieved the writing fluency that makes the whole process automatic, so can't write as quickly or as much as some of the others. I think Bink tried Kumon English for her DS in order to improve that automatic bit of it.

DS1 (Y5) still has 'p' letters sitting on the line.

DS2 says he likes reading because you don't actually have to do anything, but he doesn't like 'literacy' because you have to work.

Good luck with the paragraphs at home. Have you got lots of desirable small incentives?

oh thanks for that singersgirl. I'll have a look at Kumon English. And your ds2's attitude is exactly the same as dd's.

I can completely understand why the teacher is frustrated (and dd too) as, because she won't/can't write, she's finding it increasingly hard doing work with her. And I think she got away with it in yr2 because they still don't expect children to be able to write that well but now they are streaming, I can see why they find it virtually impossible to let dd do the level of work she's capable of if she isn't capable of actually physically producing it (iyswim!).

I need to think about incentives don't I. She's good with incentives. Perhaps some little ones building up to a big one. Hmmm.

(I have to think about ds too because he will want to earn little incentives if he sees dd getting them!).

I think you're on the right track now, Foxnsox, just get her to start writing anything. Try:

Thank you notes,
Christmas lists,
lists of her friends with tel. numbers or addresses or birthdays,
lists of her favourite toys or books.
List what she wants in her lunchbox each day
List of what makes her mad,
or things she would like to change at school.

She could browse the library catalog on the Internet and give you a list of what books she wants you to get from the library next time you go (list to include author's names).

Writing is the big thing I am pushing with my Y3 DS, too.

Have you considered getting her a nice set of stationary or writing pens? Encourage drawing, too (could you buy her some new art materials?), as this utilises the same basic fine motor skills.

no, I haven't thought about that lijkk. These are brilliant ideas, thank you. I'm a bit clueless about all this .

I have just asked dd to write something about what she would change at school (that's exactly the sort of thing she likes to do!) and she's just started doing it without even complaining (well a bit, but not on her usual scale ).

Maybe I just need to inspire her a bit - add in the incentives and we might just be getting somewhere.

(I'm starting to feel quite relieved about this all now. It's going to be hard work but I'm hoping we might be getting somewhere. Thankyou all so much!).

Ooooh I'll tell you what is GREAT. Write a letter to the Queen. Honestly, it's wonderful. And they try really hard because it's for the Queen and everything AND AND AND then you get a letter back and you fall off your chair with excitement.

Also the Queen is very nice and you can write to her about anything. DS2 wrote a letter complaining about difficult spellings, and her Lady-in-Waiting was cooly appreciative of his thoughts.

Obviously, you can't do this all the time. That would be mad. But is good as a once off thing, and SO much better than a shopping list.

Oh dear, oh dear. Just glanced at thread. Ring me, go on,go on, am trying to muster energy to work and am getting nowhere.

Is it at all relevant that Mr Fox writes stuff for a living? I wonder sometimes with the Inferiorettes, how they feel about writing when it's something I do every day and apparently (ha!) effortlessly. At the moment it's benefiting DD1 but I know when she started reading it may have been additionally frustrating that mum and dad vegged out with a book while she found it a real struggle...?

and what in hell's name is going on when I try to italicise, eh? I linked to PERSIL, ffs.

yes, I'll ring MI!

that's the thing Issy - dd is like that too and impossible to force into anything. Strong-willed, strong minded. It is perfectly possible that going into the juniors has really given her a fright - she's only an August child - but sadly, this problem has been around for a while but is only coming to a head now as we all knew it would at some stage. I think I had been hoping she would just snap out of it.

I'll try all these tactics - and lol at your son complaining about the spelling to the queen. I don't think her enthusiasm will last but we have got to the stage now where I think I'll just have to insist on 10 minutes (and try and make it a fun 10 minutes as much as possible) and then wave a carrot in front of her nose for afterwards.

Dd is fascinated by dh writing but he does it so effortlessly even I am quite amazed (as you know, this is not where my skills lie ) BUT what dd sees is him writing on a computer. I think dh's physical writing is possibly worse than dd's and that's always reassured her!

Halloo. Saw my name (re Kumon English).

Kumon English definitely did help shift my ds's writing logjam but at a fairly high price (in every sense). There might be other ways of doing it - I've never looked at whether Write from the Start deals with this issue (ie, the content & continuity of writing, as opposed to just the letter-formation) but if it does that might be a good idea?

I do agree assessment might be interesting in your case - one of the things ed psychs can be good at identifying is "learning style" - it's easy to identify an "independent learner" - the self-motivated, engaged ones - but there are all sorts of other styles which don't show themselves so easily. It would be quite useful to see what is suggested re your dd.

(Incidentally, ds is also a big reader & a dreamy thinker, & since ds's logjam shifted we are getting (a bit, not consistently!) to see one thing that was behind it all - when he does now get on with a writing task, like a "story about an alien having a holiday on Earth" you don't get a neat contained page about the mystery of cows - you get chapters and chapters explaining how the main character is an ambassador because he didn't qualify as an explorer, and detailing how exactly each bit of his spacecraft works, and interior monologue about what sort of intelligent life he might encounter, and real plot too. It is quite possible that your dd is similar - eg, setting her sights higher than her ability to execute - and therefore experiencing, basically, writer's block.)

Wise words from bink re writers' block .
We get ds to plan his longer written homework - he has a month to write a 1000 word short story for World Book Day and I know this will fry his overactive little brian, so we've started with "chapter" headings and key "plot developments".
It's about green blobs colonising the earth

I only just found this- some excellent ideas on here already, but I just thought I would tell you about my niece. She's the youngest of 3, the older two very bright, and has always been very much her own person, sparky and highly entertaining (sounds a bit like your dd!). She also drifted at primary school- in year 5 she was on the bottom table for everything. Her mum asked her if she minded and she said "oh no it's ace, it's really easy work and as long as you make sure you don't get everything right they don't move you up" (Result ). At the end of year 5 they decided to move her to the private school her older siblings attend, and she did fantastically well in the entrance exams, the highest score they had that year.

My point (such as it is) is that there needs to be a good match between the child and the environment, but it can all turn out OK in the end even if they do coast. My niece has continued to do well at the new school. I am not suggesting moving her for a minute, but just that it may be enough to gently encourage, and ride it out until she gets a new teacher.

Yes, what is with these links? Stupid little pop-up adverts all over the place...

foxinsocks I was just reading your posts about spelling / reading and how she is doing basic spellings. Could you try linking spellings to some of her favourite books adn doing these at home. At our dc's school they do VCOP where the V is vocabulary and they have some wonderfully descriptive spellings to learn.

If you could maybe pick some great desciptive words from her books that she could learn to spell, that may help with her wiritng and engagement? Also the rest of it is Conjunctions - and, but Openings - one sunny day, once upon a time and Punctuation.

I have just read a 'book' dd had written for her 'boyfriend' and altho the writing is all over the place, and the spelling is not perfect, the ideas are excellent and the vocabulary very descriptive. i also saw a 'poem' she wrote at school today and it had lovely expressions like 'skimmed across the sea' and 'dived off the rock and plunged into the frothy sea' (guess who watched 'Surf's Up' over the hols ) which i found amazing for a 6 yr old so there must be something in this!

foxy, do you think she has an actual physical issue with the skills needed to write? a friends ds had always struggled with this..... in y3 he was diagnosed as having hypermobility and it was this as much as motivation etc that was making it so hard for him. he has pohysio and other specialist help now and has been transformed. just a thought. google it if you want more info.

For example, she showed me that her nfer test results for literacy and reading were exceptionally high, yet they persist in making her do spelling in the non top group (so she's doing 3 letter and 4 letter words) when at the end of yr2, she was in the hardest group and really enjoying it.

I'm starting to think quite a bit of this is that dd has been completely demotivated by this teacher giving her work that she was doing 2 or 3 years ago.

This is exactly the same as dt1
I have yet to find a way to sort it, have met with the teacher but nothing has changed.
We do much harder spellings at home and read lots of books that are more advanced than the school ones. Have showed and explained this to the teacher yet she is still in the second to bottom group

Will watch this thread to see how you are doing, maybe someone will have ideas I can use

Fox, how is your dd emotionally? I only ask because dt1 is quite higjly strung and sometimes volatile (sp!) and we found that with her teacher in yr 2 they tackled this with harder work which really worked, her teacher this year refuses to believe that herder work will keep her brain more activated and this in turn helps to keep her emotionally stable.

Marina - planning - definitely absolutely.
Ds's specialist school has storyboard templates that everyone from the 4yos up uses - boxes for "when" "who with" "what happened next" and "how I felt at the end" which they all fill out with stick figures before they even think about writing a word. I think that has helped too, though ds does love to fill in the boxes with really complicated illustrations & wiring diagrams, which of course make the transliteration even more difficult.

(I think maybe my ds and yours should exchange stories.)

thanks everyone. Lots to think about! I must look at some of these writing programmes.

controlfreaky - her fine motor skills are poor, definitely (we all suffer from that here ) - things like eating with a knife and fork are still a battle for both of mine. But they are getting better over time.

magnolia, she appears quite laid back but is a bit in awe of the older/more mature girls and can be a bit show offy to get their attention (when she can be bothered). She's the sort of child that people often describe as being quite self reliant in that she doesn't need people around her (although she likes it when they are) - she very much likes it all to be on her terms iyswim!

I'll have a chat to dh tonight when I see him and see what he thinks about it all too.

and bink, that writer's block is very interesting. I imagine that often happens when children soar ahead with reading but their writing lags behind. It makes sense actually doesn't it.

funnily enough tamum, dh and I were saying how she'd be the perfect private school kid. She needs just a little bit of extra encouragement and attention and she'd be off but with one teacher and 30 children, she's just never going to be able to get that.

Ds, on the otherhand, who I always thought would struggle more at school because he's so sensitive, is thriving at state school because he's so self motivated. They adore him and he adores them.

She sounds very like DS2, even down to the self-reliance and being fine by herself. Both of mine have poor fine motor and DS1 at 9 is only just competent with a knife and fork.

I think you're right about the smaller classes - if both mine had had intensive handwriting intervention earlier, we'd have had fewer writing problems overall. But what seems to happen is that in Y1 they say "Oh, it's nothing to worry about, he's very young for the year" and then in Y2 they say "Well, obviously handwriting is a big issue...."

I love the storyboard idea (and indeed Bink's DS's wonderfully complex story).