If your DC are "clever" - was it obvious from the start?

[SpaceOP]

I'm not talking gifted and talented/prodigy type clever, just more general, day-to-day academic "clever" as in as they then went through school they did well academically, didn't find school difficult etc. if they went to grammar school or other selective type schools, when did you figure out that they probably would be able to do this?

To be clear, I'm fully aware that intelligence can be measured in many different ways. DS, who is, I think, quite intelligent, has never really performed at school. His intelligence is far more about emotional intelligence and street smarts - both of which are regularly commented on by teachers/other parents - but his understanding of academic subjects is relatively low.

DD appears to be quite traditionally clever - she reads very well, seems to do okay with numbers, comes home and tells me about things she's learning and is able to apply this knowledge etc etc. In our area, high schools for girls are a little limited, so in time, we'll consider grammar school or see if she can get a scholarship for a private school but obviously, at 6, she's a bit young to really assess that. But I'm trying to figure out if this sort of academic smarts is obvious from the start or not? Entirely for my own interest as clearly there is nothing we can or will do right now besides continue to send her to school!

There is a long standing belief that if you are left handed then you are more likely to be a genius - but it doesn't appear to be true.

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-asymmetric-brain/201903/are-left-handers-smarter-right-handers

I've noticed a few very alert babies and toddlers have gone on to do well in primary school; they are doing well in secondary too but it's early days. They've not always been first with crawling or walking but seem to show interest in everything that's going on. They've been less interested in feeding or settling down for naps and more in reaching out and grabbing for things.

They've been interested in books but not all reading early. I've found them more likely to need a closer eye kept on them because they get up to mischief if they aren't engaged with something.

We knew from a very young age that they were bright. Less about specific achievements and more about their curiosity in the world, their passion for learning new skills and their problem solving abilities.
They had good general knowledge, could all read well before school despite being August babies and could do basic mathematics. They spoke some French, were beginning to read music and had a wide vocabulary.

We did set high expectations of academic success by eighteen, so that the choice of career was a genuine choice and not limited by inadequate grades.

Their nursery offered the eldest a full scholarship into the pre-prep but we turned it down. She didn’t need it and it would have limited her wider experiences.

All through reception I was told dc1 was in the top third of the class, that she got everything and doing really well. In the May we moved areas and dc went to a new more academic school (still just the local, catchment state school, so nothing fancy). She ended up in the lower half. Academically struggled through her primary years and didn’t do great in year 6 sats. Since then she has done really well and is now predicted 5/6/7s for her GCSEs next year. I think the first school focused on the whole child. Dc was and still is excellent with people, can talk really well, to anyone, has excellent confidence and resilience, can listen and follow instructions etc. So she thrived at the first school. The second school did spelling tests and focused very much on writing and formal learning, even in reception. (I suspect the difference in areas had a massive influence on this, first area had high deprivation, Second area, quite affluent and many children had been in full time childcare since babies). I do think she is a late academic blossomer though as it’s all come good for her in the end.
Dc2, late summer birthday. Always knew he was bright. Could do Big jigsaws when he was 3 on his own. Got numbers very easily and could remember facts and anything you want him to very easily. He can still watch tv, read a book and listen to a football match all at the same time and know exactly what’s going on in each. He came top of the year in his reception baseline assessments and in the top 5% of his year for sats. He also needed speech therapy at preschool/reception age and if there had been a budget would probably have benefited from more in year 1but there wasn’t so he had to make do with me. F we could have understood him through this time, I think he would have been amazed by his knowledge.

Dc3, is again very bright, but hides it well. I never really think of her as Being One of the more able dc in her year, but she is. She has no desire to be though, except that her best Friends are also in that class. She does what she needs to do to get by, but little else. Maybe I should push her more, but she’s 10, plenty of time to figure it out on her imo.

On our fridge, we have a photo of the 6 Narrators for my son’s Reception Christmas Show (aka the top reading group).

It was taken in 2006, and they have all just started university. 2 Cambridge, 1 Oxford, 1 Imperial AstroPhysics, 1 Harvard and 1 (poor underachieving DS) Durham.

@CountFosco- I was not commenting on lefthandedness being linked to intelligence in any way. I merely commented that in my wider family there are a few dyslexics who all happen to be left handed and all became either architects or artists and are very successful despite their early struggles at school (linked to their dyslexia not necessarily left handedness). Only 10 per cent of the population is left handed so if half your colleagues are left handed and scientists that is interesting. I wonder if more scientists are left handed then. My architect cousin told me studies have shown that overall more architects are left handed then the 10/90 population split would suggest.

Both DDs are “clever.” They both had good muscle tone as newborns. They held their own necks up, rolled over and crawled quite early. Not sure if there is a correlation or if it’s just part of being generally healthy and well.

Yes it was apparent from the start with dd1. Late Walker early talker. Shot through reading scheme and very keen reader. Though it was year 4 she seemed to be running laps ahead of the other kids. Her school reports changed that year to 'is performing well above average'. Year 5 teacher had me in tears at parents evening explaining her scores which were year 6 level by then.

Dd1 conceptual understanding is very telling of how bright she is.

When she was very young and only just starting to talk she wanted a tangerine for her lunch. She didn't know the correct word so pointed and said "juice ball". I thought then that she had the ability to problem solve and use her initiative.

This my DS (yr12 in superselective grammar) called olives "marmite grapes" just before 2. Had his colours by 18m all times tables to 12 in year 2.

My daughter really struggled at reading all the way through primary school. She doesn’t really enjoy books. She’s 13 now and is top of second set maths. Holding her own in English but still dislikes books!
She gets high scores in all other subjects.
Her intelligence grew at senior school.

We don't have grammar schools here, but my son is being educated in (and keeping up with) full French language immersion. We don't speak French at home and only "clever" children are really able to progress in this type of schooling.

I knew he would be suited to it when he taught himself to read around age 3. He was able to read letters and sound them out before he was 2. I never taught him, it just happened.

It is a nightmare though. He has the intellectual abilities, but not necessarily the temperament or need to please teachers that really makes kids succeed in elite programs, in a measurable way. Kids who want to do well, do well in such schools. Kids who are possibly a bit too clever - who ask "why" a bit too much for example - or who are more sensitive, easily discouraged, etc you've got to be careful IMO, sometimes a more ordinary school can be better at managing that type of child and helping them reach their potential.

Precocious comprehension. Ask questions and have a good understanding of the answers.

Excellent recall, long before they can read.

Able to spot patterns and arrange items into patterns, so really good with jigsaws and Lego, and later word searches, Pelmanism, Sudoku, Rubik’s cubes.

Immersive reading. Once they’ve been read a book, or read it themselves, they want to read all the others in the series or everything by that author. Librarians can probably talent spot earlier than teachers.

Focus. Can concentrate on something for very long periods, even if it’s just imaginary conversations with Barbie.

Auto-didactic.

Ambitious. All the Oxbridge graduates I’ve ever met knew they were going to give it a shot before they even chose their GCSEs, even if they told nobody else. All the doctors I know say similar - knew before they were teens that they were in with a chance, even if their parents and teachers were unsure.

That said, the most accurate predictor of academic success is simply family history - if you’re a university graduate and particularly if grandparents are graduates, it’s highly likely your daughter will be one too. Various equality of opportunity groups at Oxbridge have tried to address this, but 50+ years of assortative mating behind you is always going to be a massive head start.

Agree with other PPs that academic ability is merely one kind of intelligence. There are plenty more, and there’s a danger with academics that they peak too early, and their qualifications give a false indication of their ability to perform in the real world, when other factors come into play.

@SpaceOP

Thanks all. Very interesting and it sounds like I'm not being unreasonable to think that DD is at least on the path to potential academic success. She's reading at the top of her class and is currently being held back simply because the teacher and I want to be 100% sure that the comprehension of the stories she's reading are there. She's okay at numbers but suspect not the top of her class. She's very motivated - loves doing homework etc etc. And she absolutely does seem to have the ability to apply learning - she was telling me about herbivores, omnivores and carnivores the other day and then was getting me to "test" her by saying an animal and she'd tell me which it was it got boring very very quickly for me.

Agree that there are a million things that can happen between now and high school but this does make me feel like at least considering selective schools for her is not a crazy idea. We have one good state high school she could go to but it's one of those marmite schools - if it's right for her it will be brilliant but it definitely isn't right for everyone.

And the poster who commented on reading - I know this is the general view and broadly, I agree. But we have always read to both kids. DS couldn't have cared less from day 1 and by the time he started school he was doing his official reading but we'd largely stopped trying to force him to read with us. Age 9, he's becoming a bookworm. DD has always loved being read to although I do remember thinking it was odd that for a child who was always very verbal and clearly had excellent communication skills, she kept at a very low level of kids book for a long time. Those picture books with one word per page were literally worn out in this house by the time she was finally willing to move on!

Can I borrow your DD? DS driving me mad asking if animals are omnivores. They could entertain each other and leave us alone 😂

This is an interesting one and one I'm asking myself too. I parent my grandson and I so hope he will be academically clever to give him a chance to break out of the dysfunction his parents live in by giving him real choice as to what to do with his life.. he was a very early talker. First word 8 months, combing at 13 months and conversational at 20 months. Always ahead on the development matters charts at nursery. Moved up to both toddler room and preschool room early. Has an amazing memory and fascinated by how things work. Sat in the sunshine playing with his shadow by moving his hand into different positions at 8 months. A random woman in the park - commented how bright he was after watching him play in the sand at 13 months. I could go on but you get the idea. Fast forward to now. He is in Y1. At the end of reception he only achieved exceeding in knowledge and understanding of the world. His reading didn't take off as I expected ( he was reading cvc words before school). Now in y1 I can see it is all beginning to click. Now reacing solidly (green book band). Uses maths all the time at home - fascinated by time, always working out how many etc, understands odd even counts in as 5s and 10s, knows number bonds. He is late July birthday so only 5 and 3 months. I doubt his teacher has recognised his potential though . Only ta hears him read and his handwriting is still immature. Hes also in a predominantly girl class and as a summer born boy he is at a major disadvantage. Will he push on through and shine? I'm not sure

Two very bright children but very different.

Eldest Is end of August baby. Very demanding baby - wanted to be entertained constantly and only slept for five hours a day (and those hours weren’t at night). Wasn’t particularly quick at picking up reading but loved being read to and had a great vocabulary. Maths in Y3 she hovered between bottom of top set, top of middle set. Then everything changed in Y4 and she started racing ahead and was top of top sets. It coincided with her doing a lot more sport and extra curricular activities and a huge improvement in her confidence. It was almost like her brain needed the constant stimulation. She still doesn’t sleep and her spelling is atrocious but she aced the grammar 11+ without formal tuition and was awarded an academic scholarship to an independent - neither of which we accepted as we found a school that could not only deal with the academic side but also all the extra curricular stuff that seems to make her click. She also has a photographic memory. Is that intelligence or just a VERY handy skill to have?

Other child picked up reading very quickly and again has huge vocabulary (a lot of which seems to have come from YouTube). Gifted in maths but will take her time - very methodical and will check her answer is correct before moving on so not tackling extension work. She’s a bit put out as her teacher makes her do it as homework (we are only talking 10-15 mins here though). At four was telling me that there was about a quarter of the number of cars in England as there are people as each car fits four people. She seems to do the extra thinking bit and analyse things rather more deeply than her sister. Exceptionally high NFER scores. She does have lazy tendencies though unless it’s art and or music, both of which she adores and is scholarship material. Rather shy though and doesn’t have half the confidence of her sister. May well choose a different secondary school for her as their needs are very different in supporting that intelligence.

I don’t necessarily think that achievement aged 6 is necessarily a sign of intelligence. Parental input plays a huge part. Would these children know all their colours, times tables and be able to read Harry Potter aged 3 if their parents hadn’t supported them in that? Look at the numerous posts on here about tutoring for 4+ for schools. Apart from the truly exceptionally gifted then I doubt it. For me intelligence hasn’t been displayed in my children by reaching of academic milestones ahead of time, but by the depth and breadth of that learning, understanding and taking it to the next level. I am staunchly anti tutoring and have never hired one for either child. I place as much emphasis on extra curricular stuff as academic school work. It’s important they have balance. I think if they are happy and confident then this translates in the classroom.

I think by Y3 you have a good idea of intelligence and from our school teachers point of view is when they start managing parental expectations on next schools.

Her HT commented on her KS1 SATs. She didn't progress through the reading scheme for ages because she refused to sound out words in case they were wrong.
Had different version of this with DD - she'd get FURIOUS if she got a word wrong or we corrected her. She also went through a phase of obviously knowing the word, but, for whatever reason, not being willing to read it so she'd substitute it with a synonym.

@TakeMeToYourLiar that made me laugh out loud. I can tell you, if you haven't already figured it out, that Alexa is not much help with the whole omnivore, carnivore, herbivore thing (my default way to distract kids is to get them to go do it with Alexa! I am planning to spend this weekend uploading spelling words to Alexa so that DD can do spelling tests with her instead of me!

Thanks all. What I'm actually finding very very interesting is that while DD and DS are very very different, a lot of the comments here do, to a large extent, apply to DS. Academically he is very very far behind. HIs school are very supportive and the SENCO, who also was his class teacher in the past, truly is committed to him because she knows he's perfectly intelligent. It's impossible to imagine a situation where he actually catches up in any meaningful way but actually you've all given me some hope. I don't actually care if he's academic or not but our big concern right now is that we don't want him so far behind that high school is too difficult and unpleasant for him. Some of what you're saying here I recognise although it's starting a bit later for him - he's in year 5 - and I feel like maybe he can accelerate his catching up a bit more than we have been hoping for. He does have SPD and executive function issues so that obviously makes school that much harder for him too.

But things you've all commented on including learning to love to read later, ability to focus and concentrate (getting him focused is hard, but once he is.... he's really very good), determination and commitment, ambition etc are all features of his personality.

Parental support is a huge influence on how well dc do at school. If parents don’t do this, few of their children excel in academics. Obviously some do well regardless. Often though, with DC not given support, they do not achieve as much as they could have done had they been supported. It’s one of the reasons why dc under achieve.

I’d agree with the comments about noticing the brighter dc at around Y1/2. They just found learning easier. Not necessarily as great at neat writing, or sport, but they had confidence to succeed (and get speaking parts) and definitely had supportive intelligent parents. Often musical too. I’m looking at both state and privately educated dc.

I don’t think teachers always spot who might do well in the future. They don’t spot linguists at that age! However, virtually every bright child I’ve come across (even a few gifted) has gone to a good university and done very well. Plenty to Oxbridge and other top universities. The one DC that sticks in my mind as not doing as well as they should have done, had parents who totally messed up their marriage and the lives of their dc.

The op was asking about DC a bit below the gifted level of achievement and I think,these dc are a more variable group. They can really grasp concepts and move forward when well taught and supported but personality can derail progress. University attended and stellar academics isn’t everything though. Making up for what you lack academically can be compensated for by other good traits and many dc who are not Oxbridge do end up doing very well. You don’t have to be top to succeed!

I can't say I ever gave it much thought when mine was a baby and small child; I was aware that children developed differently in leaps and bounds and it's how they perform when they are older that counts.

However, looking back I suppose he was bright. Well we knew he was bright but so are many kids, it's not that unusual. He could read quite well, write a bit and do sums before starting school, was also very articulate. He learned computer languages and could program from age eight, was also musical.

A lot depends on the school because if a child gets into highly academic school they will be just 'ordinary' (which is no bad thing). Some children are frustrated at school because they know what they want to achieve and feel that school inhibits them in that respect.

I'd say to anyone, just play it by ear; listen to your child, be aware of what they need and encourage that, don't force anything but be easy going. Let them find their own path (I wish my parents had had that attitude with me).

@SpaceOP

Her HT commented on her KS1 SATs. She didn't progress through the reading scheme for ages because she refused to sound out words in case they were wrong. Had different version of this with DD - she'd get FURIOUS if she got a word wrong or we corrected her. She also went through a phase of obviously knowing the word, but, for whatever reason, not being willing to read it so she'd substitute it with a synonym.

@TakeMeToYourLiar that made me laugh out loud. I can tell you, if you haven't already figured it out, that Alexa is not much help with the whole omnivore, carnivore, herbivore thing (my default way to distract kids is to get them to go do it with Alexa! I am planning to spend this weekend uploading spelling words to Alexa so that DD can do spelling tests with her instead of me!

Thanks all. What I'm actually finding very very interesting is that while DD and DS are very very different, a lot of the comments here do, to a large extent, apply to DS. Academically he is very very far behind. HIs school are very supportive and the SENCO, who also was his class teacher in the past, truly is committed to him because she knows he's perfectly intelligent. It's impossible to imagine a situation where he actually catches up in any meaningful way but actually you've all given me some hope. I don't actually care if he's academic or not but our big concern right now is that we don't want him so far behind that high school is too difficult and unpleasant for him. Some of what you're saying here I recognise although it's starting a bit later for him - he's in year 5 - and I feel like maybe he can accelerate his catching up a bit more than we have been hoping for. He does have SPD and executive function issues so that obviously makes school that much harder for him too.

But things you've all commented on including learning to love to read later, ability to focus and concentrate (getting him focused is hard, but once he is.... he's really very good), determination and commitment, ambition etc are all features of his personality.

It's a nightmare! Mine is 4 and just expects me to know

I have a 6 year old (well 6 in 2 weeks!) Who has SEN largely focusing around her speech, language, communication and auditory processing (And emotions). Beneath the communication issues we all believe she is actually incredibly intelligent. This is coming from me, staff at school, peads etc. Her communication and speech makes her look really behind and if has hugely impacted her reading but she is very switched on, very eager to learn, very bright and aware. I think if we can support her underlying SEN she will fly ahead.

She can wipe the floor of her class with maths.

@Mumofsend so many children with SEND have 'spiky profiles'. DD1 (almost 15) still can't read long passages and she substitutes familiar words if they have a similar spelling cluster. But she can tell you all about gas giants and the solar system, how far away such and such moon is, etc. She can point out most car makes by body shape and badges and can tell you all about the latest Teslas. She can retain information about sex of ducks, etc., and tells us random facts.

Yet, she is going to need support for every day living and to keep her safe in society. It's rarely as simple as 'clever' and 'not clever'.

@samuraimyths

The point about dyslexia is very pertinent. I have several dyslexics in our wider family (not immediate, it almost seems genetic on one side of the family) who really struggled at school for years- all left handed and now successful, well known architects or artists. As in, prize winning “well known”. They were “lucky” in that their parents persisted and never gave up on them and in some cases, could afford private schools. I hate to think about what happens to poorer dyslexic but very bright children who don’t get the help they deserve. They say it is better these days, I hope so.

Glad you wrote this. My son is 4 and has a dyslexic Dad and Grandfather so I’m watching. He’s also left handed and very much into how things work and are made, he’s very inquisitive. So hoping if he does have it we’ll be able to push him in the right direction and get him the help he needs.

Both if our primary children are at the top of their classes for maths and English. Initially I focused on reading and now I focus on maths. DC2 was slow to walk and talk but now you can't stop him! He now has an excellent vocabulary for his age.

One of mine is bright, one less so. Both dad and I went to Oxbridge so it’s more of a surprise they both aren’t.

One of my uni contemporaries didn’t walk until 2 so I don’t think the physical side has got much to do with it!

Oh and (I know this isn’t a popular mumsnet view) Oxbridge really isn’t the be all and end all. I loved it but it’s held up as the holy grail for some reason

Thisismylife1, you are right. What is important is for children to develop in the way nature intended for them, to be their best self, with encouragement from parents along the way. If you're lucky they will be in a school that does the same but that doesn't always happen.