If your DC are "clever" - was it obvious from the start?

[SpaceOP]

I'm not talking gifted and talented/prodigy type clever, just more general, day-to-day academic "clever" as in as they then went through school they did well academically, didn't find school difficult etc. if they went to grammar school or other selective type schools, when did you figure out that they probably would be able to do this?

To be clear, I'm fully aware that intelligence can be measured in many different ways. DS, who is, I think, quite intelligent, has never really performed at school. His intelligence is far more about emotional intelligence and street smarts - both of which are regularly commented on by teachers/other parents - but his understanding of academic subjects is relatively low.

DD appears to be quite traditionally clever - she reads very well, seems to do okay with numbers, comes home and tells me about things she's learning and is able to apply this knowledge etc etc. In our area, high schools for girls are a little limited, so in time, we'll consider grammar school or see if she can get a scholarship for a private school but obviously, at 6, she's a bit young to really assess that. But I'm trying to figure out if this sort of academic smarts is obvious from the start or not? Entirely for my own interest as clearly there is nothing we can or will do right now besides continue to send her to school!

Some only really come into their own at the A'level stage, when they can specialise on what they really want to do and are good at.
For grammar school, you need to focus on maths and English.
For Oxbridge, you can be weak at maths as long as you're brilliant at what you want to take at degree level.

Selection from wider family.
boy 1- bright, sociable, excellent STEM, artistic, picked up reading at 3-4 just by being read to. Grammar Sch. Not prepared to do things he doesn't want to do but v hard worker when interested. Uni. Reads v widely. Given up work to do 'what he wants to do' ie write. 2 books so far.
boy 2 as above STEM. Comp. Thought school was a laugh, very last minute with course work. Uni. Lot of voluntary work with teenagers. V sporty.
Neither motivated by money.
girl - reading at 3-4, very conscientious. We first realised was clever when got best grades in school in English, Maths, Sciences at 8ish (?), very wide interests, drama, very sociable with friends from v different backgrounds, PT waitress at Comp, Oxbridge. Up at 5.30 am to study, academic prizes. Barrister.
None had private tutor. All very strong minded in different ways! All supremely confident in their own capabilities / judgment ( rightly or wrongly!)

All 3 had lots of adult conversation when young eg always ate with parents, travelled etc. Parents always went with the flow - no pushing but encouraged whatever they wanted to do. Lots of praise.

Others - boy 3 -in trouble with police ( low level teen bad behaviour ) now fine, sports coach. Not academic.
boy 4- various businesses - not v successful or academic.
Their father successful doctor , v. busy not much time for them. Had tutors. Mother well meaning, low level neglectful.

What to make of it all??

Eldest ds always at the top of every class, read early, talked early and was academic across all subjects except art. Played musical instruments. He was also always reading, took notice of current affairs and the world. He is knowledgeable. 14 GCSEs at A or a*, normal comprehensive school. Now at uni.

Dd was bright and above average from babyhood. She is now 15 and I'd say she is academic but she is unmotivated which frustrates me but I try not to nag too much.

She tried hard at school until puberty hit hard at 14ish now she is too cool for school 😡

As a baby she was a very early talker. Good sentences at 18months. Many words at 11 months.

She knew alphabet colours etc.

She had the biggest tantrums from frustration

She was very socially aware at a young age too.

I'd say dd is bright rather than clever, she is the type to get Bs rather than all A* but she is also very good at creative things like art and music. She is much better at STEM than English and languages and has some problems with spelling even now. When she was little she struggled a lot at school even though I thought she seemed intelligent at home but during secondary she really started to improve year by year. I think she will probably do even better at A level than GCSE.

Yes DD was very bright and alert from an early age. She struggled to sleep and her brain always seemed to be on the go.
When she started school she was quite obviously very academic and continued to be so through Primary and in her SATS. She scored very highly on the 11+ and was offered a scholarship to Private. She is on track for all 9s at GCSE.
We have never pushed her but she is very driven for some reason, not sure why which is a big part of it as well. She could be really bright but lazy (like her brother) and wouldnt achieve like she has

No. Some learned numbers before started school but never more than a few letters. Nothing that told me they were above avg at school work until end of yr2/start yr3 for most. DC4 especially we thought was a right thickie. Struggled with 4 piece jigsaws at age 4yo. Most of DC were delayed very unintelligible talkers, but all quite physically agile.

Many of the so called bright kids in primary school have September / October / November birthdays. To succeed academically in secondary school average intelligence and a great work ethic can get you very far indeed.

Lougle I love “chicken handle* what clever thinking from your DD

Couldn't tell which was very clever. Except seemed to 'know' her spelling without practice.

My eldest is mega bright academically. I have a video clip of him when DS2 was a newborn. There is 17 months between them so eldest would have been between 17 months to 19 months tops. He is playing with shapes and picks one up and says “it is an oval, perhaps it is the moon!”
He is doing his GCSEs now and is predicted 9s across the board. However, the boy has no common sense whatsoever ever. It is only quite recent that I’d trust him crossing a road by himself! His sister is 4 years younger than him, not as academic (although she is still in top sets) but she is much more able to negotiate every day life without getting tied up in knots! I am proud of all of my DCs but I do tend to worry about how DS will cope when he is on his own.

DS is top sets in almost all subjects at senior school. Was late reading , I deliberately avoided teaching at home pre school but romped along and had reading age of 15+ by yr5. He is just about to do GCSEs at selective senior where he has breezed through so far. He will probably achieve 8/9 in most subjects with a little application. He’s just one of those children who never seems to struggle academically.
But coming from a family of natural high achievers ( that is to say achieve without massive effort) then he is the norm.
He has a number of friends who have tutoring just to scrape through yearly exams. I would have looked for an alternative school if DS was having to work so hard just to keep his head above water.
We were recommended the school by his nursery teacher. I hadn’t realised at the time but she included him in the group who were in the school year above him. She said he would need a selective environment to feel normal. He socialises well with the sporty crowd as a result, he could have gone down the geek route. It can be very difficult fitting in when you clever and often you end up underachieving as a result of fitting in socially as a teenager. DS can feel rebellious with the rest of the clever kids, actually very funny to watch ( I went to a massive comp in the 70s) his school is much more Hogwartd than Grange Hill although they all think they are so streetwise and cool
He is quietly very able or as his friends used to call him “the clever one”, but is desperate to be normal so now dumbs down. I am crossing my fingers that he knuckles down and revises for his coming exams, he has never really revised before.

Lougle when it comes down to it I actually think the ability to think creatively to get what you want and overcome a difficulty is what actually counts the most. It sounds like your DD has that skill.

The point about dyslexia is very pertinent. I have several dyslexics in our wider family (not immediate, it almost seems genetic on one side of the family) who really struggled at school for years- all left handed and now successful, well known architects or artists. As in, prize winning “well known”. They were “lucky” in that their parents persisted and never gave up on them and in some cases, could afford private schools. I hate to think about what happens to poorer dyslexic but very bright children who don’t get the help they deserve. They say it is better these days, I hope so.

It's phenomenal, really, given her global development delay. She's very good at getting what she wants!

DD3 is obviously clever. Her HT commented on her KS1 SATs. She didn't progress through the reading scheme for ages because she refused to sound out words in case they were wrong.

it is an oval, perhaps it is the moon!

Love this

Clever is a very tricky term.

DD was a very early talker (sentences by 11 months), she also had far too much energy so I used to march her round all the museums in London on a rotation from about 18 months. She talked non-stop and argued with me incessantly. She's always been very tiny and I was endless stopped by people asking how old she was and very surprised at her verbal abilities at such a young age.

But, she refused to attempt to read and any attempts to point letters or words out on signs or in books were met with a firm hand over my mouth and 'sssshhhhh mummy!'

Turns out that she's severely dyslexic but with a very high IQ and with almost zero interest in anything academic unless it directly relates to something in her very particular and quite narrow range of interests. She's good at pattern solving and can absolutely ace an NVR test but shows no particular ability for maths.

Has a near photographic memory for music, but can't remember the three things she was supposed to bring downstairs.

Until Y3, everyone expected that she would just follow the path DH and I did, with super-selective schools, scholarships, Oxbridge etc etc.

To be honest, if she scrapes enough GCSE passes to get onto whatever she wants to do at 16 we will be happy, and I won't be at all surprised if she doesn't go to university at all. Her ambitions don't require exam results thank goodness. She's in a secondary school that can cater to all her strengths and I hope manage the weaknesses without too much trauma all round and is extremely happy for now.

I do often wonder what she would be like if she wasn't dyslexic, as that is a huge problem in so many ways.

So, I think you can be clever, you can be academic, you can be happy and you can be successful and the four do not always go together.

I'm one of 4 and my most academic sibling is probably the least clever, and the cleverest (by some margin) is the one who is the least academic - the 11 A* at GCSE at age 14 were gained with no discernible effort or interest on their part, and frankly they would probably be a lot happier if they weren't quite so clever!

I think there is so much more than basic intelligence that determines how well someone achieves academically and in a work environment.

Lots of people have talked about reading but really that is a middle class indicator. MC parents know that the number of books in a house is an indicator of how well a child will achieve at school so we read and read to our children. I have a relative who fosters, they've had children who have never been read to come to them who then love books. All children love stories, but those who are read to lots have lots of other positive things in their environment that means they achieve academically. But my earliest reader (she basically hot housed herself) is a much less enthusiastic reader at 13 than my slowest to learn to read DC at 11. So early interest doesn't always last. Both are doing well academically though.

Looking at my siblings I was always considered very bright and I do have a DPhil from Oxford. DBro was less enthusiastic about learning as a young child but got a better degree than me and has a better paid job (maths vs biochemistry degree probably has affected that). Our other 2 siblings both have degrees from a good regional university but haven't chased good careers the way DBro and I have. That's personality rather than brains.

In the next generation (looking at mieces and nephews) academic achievement seems to be mainly influenced by personality and parental expectation rather than apparent intelligence as a child.

Of my DC the eldest was always very early at everything. First to smile, walk etc and did not believe in sleep! As a baby and young child she was a complete sponge for information, at primary she'd come home from school and regurgitate the entire lesson plan (still does that to a certain extent at secondary). She's also very conscientious and hard working. At nursery I remember another parent complaining nursery hadn't taught them any letters, DD1 had been writing for over a year purely because of what nursery had taught her (I'm a very lackadaisical parent, don't really believe in pushing them). But my other two seem to be doing better and better the older they get. They are all enthusiastic about school work and want to do well, I wish I had half their motivation and I'm not quite sure how I've achieved to create such focused children!

who really struggled at school for years- all left handed and now successful

Not quite sure why you think being left handed is worthy of comment there , it's not a disability and plenty of us are conventionally intelligent. Half my workmates (scientists) are left handed.

I remember at one of DDs milestone check ups (can't remember hire's old she was) the health visitor asked me how many words DD new. I nonchalantly said something like "I'd guess around a hundred", and she said she was expecting me to say a number better 10 and 20!

DD1 was an early and avid reader, and well above average in school, but not exceptionally bright - not Oxbridge material or anything. But she's always been good at words and communicating, verbally and in writing.

DD2 was put in the gifted and talented category for music. She played the piano at home, but again not exceptional. It was a surprise to us so I asked her what she was good at in music. She said nothing in particular, she just usually copied her answers from her friend Julia.
Julia was not in the G&T group

I take the point about dyslexia and reading. My reply which sparked it Related mostly to 11+ predictionS, and having taught a handful of bright dyslexics (who get very good support at my school), none of them have come close to passing the 11+. Unfortunately where we are it involves a comprehension, SPAG and VR paper, all areas many dyslexics will struggle with, and the speed the kids have to work at is crazy. I think those with a diagnosis/EP report are entitled to 25% extra time but in reality it isn’t enough. I’d be interested to know I’d there are many dyslexic children at grammar schools - I suspect the entrance exam requirements will mean they won’t get in, even if they may thrive there.

OP you mention going for a scholarship at a private school but wanting to be sure Your daughter would keep up. What I would say is generally the private schools entrance exams are nowhere near as tough as state 11+ (a few high profile big schools aside) - independents are struggling and it’s bums on seats to pay the bills. If your daughter is able to get an academic scholarship she will be one of the most able there, and perfectly able to cope I’m sure.

I’ve nannied for a lot of children. 3 turned out to be academic highfliers (Oxbridge). With 2 it was evident from toddlerhood that they were very intelligent for reasons mentioned up thread. Constantly asking questions about the world and looking for knowledge, later reading voraciously and retaining information. Very precocious language and surprising levels of general knowledge for their age. Very head strong and ‘difficult’ children to be honest especially at the toddler stage. Neither were reading or writing before school or anything like that. It was more verbal intelligence. They’re both studying English now.

The other was a very quiet, well behaved and self contained little boy. Loved school but no obvious signs of over and above intelligence at the age I knew him well (2-5). He’s doing sciences.

DD1 was very early talking, counting, reading - first day at preschool they commented on it. Academically though - she's upper bit of the class but coasts along below the high fliers because her social life and running her gob off chatting to her mates is much higher as a priority than actually doing some bloody work. Apparently she's settling down and focusing more this year though! She's exactly like me though - it comes easy to her so she doesn't really try - I only really discovered a solid academic work ethic going back to uni as an old fart. I coasted through my first degree doing minimal reading (I couldn't understand academic texts - turns out I'm dyslexic) and just missed a first.

DD2 - language delay, motor skills issues - if you got her to write something you'd assume she was lovely but not very bright - but she is absolutely pin sharp, probably smarter than her sister underneath all her difficulties - and bloody hell that kid is tenacious. I think it's the combination of being naturally smart and the tenacity that will take her places probably further than her sister to be honest.

@modgepodge

I take the point about dyslexia and reading. My reply which sparked it Related mostly to 11+ predictionS, and having taught a handful of bright dyslexics (who get very good support at my school), none of them have come close to passing the 11+. Unfortunately where we are it involves a comprehension, SPAG and VR paper, all areas many dyslexics will struggle with, and the speed the kids have to work at is crazy. I think those with a diagnosis/EP report are entitled to 25% extra time but in reality it isn’t enough. I’d be interested to know I’d there are many dyslexic children at grammar schools - I suspect the entrance exam requirements will mean they won’t get in, even if they may thrive there.

OP you mention going for a scholarship at a private school but wanting to be sure Your daughter would keep up. What I would say is generally the private schools entrance exams are nowhere near as tough as state 11+ (a few high profile big schools aside) - independents are struggling and it’s bums on seats to pay the bills. If your daughter is able to get an academic scholarship she will be one of the most able there, and perfectly able to cope I’m sure.

I was at a super-selective grammar that had two ways of entry - the normal 11+ VR/NVR type tests and CE which you sit at 13+ and has papers in every single subject. We did get some dyslexic pupils through that - if you could ace the sciences and maths, you could drop some points in English and the essay subjects and still have a high enough average score.

My brother is dyslexic and got a place, but I would say he is pretty mild. It's more of an irritation than a serious handicap if that makes sense.

To be honest I think bright children with SpLd who 'could' get into those sort of schools are far better aiming for either those boarding independents that aren't quite as selective and who have the time and facilities to help (there are a few who are very good on this front), or a big comprehensive where they have the numbers that allow children to be set for subjects in a way that works for both their ability and disability simultaneously.

I've found that very few schools are prepared to give the 25% extra time for class tests etc, even when that merely levels the playing field a bit and the child is fully entitled to that for exams.