Teacher concerns?

[Hoppinggreen]

Without any previous concerns about the school in general or the teacher would you be worried if you heard your sons experienced, mature teacher say the following (within the same 10 minutes) to her Y6 class?
They speak Spanish in Brazil
Hitler wanted to reunite Germany because it was divided by the Berlin Wall

Could you not have said "of course Mrs X is right in saying Hitler wanted all the Germans to come together, though it wasn't actually about the Berlin Wall as that wasn't built until after Hitler died. Anyone else have a question?"

• you can correct without it being rude about it.

Or, console yourself with the knowledge that only half of the class were listening and half of them will forget by the next day anyway

MrsKypp

I think you look very foolish talking about ethics when what this really was was a slip/gap in general knowledge. Ethically! 😂

In 1919 Hitler announced his party policy, the first point being -We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany, on the basis of the right of a self-determination of peoples.
Germany had previously been unified in 1871 previously being a collection of states

Jolly that’s basically what I said
some German people found themselves living outside Germany after WW1 but some had never really lived there. Hitler himself wanted to UNITE them not REunite them. It’s in the Nazi manifesto. In fact it’s key. Not going back to the old German nation but a new, better and larger one
Anyway, whether my German inter war history is perfect or not isn’t the point.
Of course people make mistakes, it’s just a pretty major one to say that the Berlin Wall was a factor in WW2 and if you don’t know about it (and it’s not on your curriculum ) then fine, you don’t know. Either keep quiet or if necessary go and find out and answer later. Both of those options would have been better

Hoppinggreen

No, Hitler’s strategy was both reacquisitive AND expansionist. It is entirely correct to say he wanted to reunify German-speaking peoples, as he understood it. That’s why the polity was called the Third Reich, as the Second Reich was considered to be Germany, and the First Reich considered to be the Holy Roman Empire.

Point being, anyway, the teacher thought she was right. There’s no point saying she should have googled it; she didn’t think she needed to. Just like if I think a colleague is called Sally when they’re called Sammy and I get it wrong. It’s not a tragedy, just an error. Get over it.

*Imperial Germany

I agree with you jolly. It's one thing to identify a mistake and raise it if required, and quite another to decide that you can comment on someone's professional competency based on a general knowledge mistake.

There are many topics I have great general knowledge in beyond my subject specialisms, but it would be most unpleasant and smug of me to judge someone else for not sharing that area of general knowledge. There are other areas I know a few things about but wouldn't say I'm confident in. If someone tutted about how it shows I lack intelligence and general knowledge then I'd consider them an arse.

In my experience the people who like to profess themselves to have amazing general knowledge and be quite patronising about those who don't have the same knowledge as them tend not to be that knowledgeable and fall into the camp of "knows some things about a few areas = thinks they know a lot about a lot".

If they've then never been in year groups that cover WW2, they would have had no reason to swat up on it.

They are teaching it now so they do have reasons to though . Teachers can't know all, of course, but they should research what they are teaching.

I'm with you OP. I think that WWII and the Berlin Wall are general knowledge, especially for someone who's been to university and teaches young people.

We are getting into semantics now but he didn’t want to reunify Germany. He wanted to unify ALL German people, which ever country they lived in. To “RE” something it has to be that way in the first place
But now we are going to be arguing about English language as well as Germany between the wars Jolly
I never thought any of this was a “tragedy” and I’m completely “over it”
I just wondered if such basic mistakes meant a general level of lack of knowledge that was concern or whether I should just assume it was a blip and forget it.

@thejollyroger

Thanks for explaining what you meant.

I find teaching wrong information like that about Hitler is unethical because so many suffered so terribly because of his policies and actions. Accuracy therefore matters a lot, in my opinion.

My knowledge of WWII isn't perfect either, very far from it, but I'd be very careful to double check info if I was teaching anyone about it.

Teaching the children that they speak Spanish in Brazil is ignorant and lazy. Again, it matters.

My general knowledge isn't great, but I am not giving children wrong information in the position of a teacher i.e. someone whose knowledge you need to be able to (more or less) trust.

I find teaching wrong information like that about Hitler is unethical because so many suffered so terribly because of his policies and actions. Accuracy therefore matters a lot, in my opinion.

I think that is a gross overreaction to the nature of this individual error. If the teacher had said Auschwitz was in Wales, I would agree with you. This isn’t that.

No, it’s not semantics. Nurturing a resurgent Germany and reacquiring lost territories was core to Hitler’s political strategy, and it quite simply wrong to say what you said.

I just wondered if such basic mistakes meant a general level of lack of knowledge that was concern or whether I should just assume it was a blip and forget it.

The latter.

A direct quote from the Nazi manifesto is simply wrong?
It’s really not

Yes, you are wrong. Saying you want to unify a disparate group doesn’t mean or imply you believe it has never been unified. You’ve misread that and missed the context of the preceding century and in particular, the long tradition of German nationalism and disputed territories following the breakdown of the Holy Roman Empire. That’s okay; you’re probably not a specialist in the subject area.

This is definitely semantics. The reference to the Berlin wall clearly illustrates she was very confused and wasn't correctly informing the kids. I'd be fairly shocked too OP.

FullOfJellyBeans

It’s not semantics. The OP has specifically claimed - and claimed it is important - that Hitler did not want to reunify Germany. He did. That is a factual error, not a semantic one.

The teacher also made a factual error with regards to the Berlin Wall.

We all make mistakes.

I’m out.
Thanks to everyone who commented
jolly you have made this very personal when I certainly was never personal about either you or my sons teacher
This thread was never about my knowledge (or lack of it according to you, although I would argue about that) but you’ve obviously taken my post as an attack on the teaching profession as a whole, one which I have the utmost respect for and you have (over) reacted accordingly and been quite unpleasant.
I know you put up with a lot if crap from the SLT, press, parents and that’s before you even have to deal with the children but if you assume everyone who dares to question a teacher is out to get you all then it’s a real shame.

Personal 😂

That’s how it goes when the factual error is yours, is it?

thejollyroger you argue as if all primary teachers are tabula rasas and only know what they happen to have researched in accordance with the fickle demands of the national curriculum, but surely this teacher had some sort of education herself and still managed to skip the basics of WW2 which is pretty embarrassing.

Booboostwo

I hardly think the teacher can be held responsible for what she was or wasn’t taught at school.

booboo you finding that mistake embarrassing suggests you're looking down on them just like other posters.

Some people may say certain historical knowledge is basic general knowledge from a place of superiority, others may say certain literary knowledge is basic general knowledge. Or basic scientific awarenees, or general knowledge of domestic political affairs and so on.
Most people will have a range of knowledge in different areas with some strengths and weaknesses. Most people would be more than capable of seeing a mistake without needing to declare someone is professionally incompetent, their lack of knowledge is embarrassing, or suggesting that an error brings their intellect into question.
Usually when people are busy looking down on others for "embarrassing" lack of knowledge what they're actually saying is "I know about this topic so think it matters so I'll look down on you for not having this body of knowledge as it confirms that I am more cultured/more intelligent".

LolaSmiles yes I read books, shoot me. I do think it’s embarrassing to set out to teach others and not know basic things. But as I said in my very first post before thejollyroger lost the plot with nitpickiness, maybe the teacher misspoke because she was nervous having a parent present in her class.

"I hardly think the teacher can be held responsible for what she was or wasn’t taught at school." But they can and should be held responsible for what they teach their pupils

I don't think people are looking down on the teacher for getting the info wrong, but for teaching the children wrong information.

I think it's a teacher's responsibility to check what they are teaching is factually correct. Of course mistakes can happen, but the two examples the OP gave did give the impression of ignorance and lack of insight into her/his lack of knowledge.

I wouldn't feel it was an embarrassing lack of knowledge (not knowing about history or languages spoken where isn't embarrassing, just a bit ignorant). The thing is, I would expect a teacher to check basics before teaching something.

You can't know everything, nobody does and teachers might have to teach something out of their area of expertise, but with the internet there is no excuse.

I also tend to agree with @Hoppinggreen that @thejollyroger is reacting in a defensive manner (personalising it).