Massively first world problem but need your thoughts

[CFeatherstone]

Hi. I’m completely torn up and stressing myself out over a big decision. I also feel totally ridiculous for being this stressed out about it when most people don’t even have this luxury choice

I live in the catchment area (probably!) for a vg state primary. It’s not guaranteed but it’s looking probs 75% likely. It’s ‘outstanding’ and has a great reputation locally, and all my neighbours send their kids there. It’ll be Nov 2020 when we have to apply for it.

At the moment DD is at the nursery part of a v v posh and expensive prep school. She absolutely loves it, and I do as well. We are seriously considering it as an option instead of the state primary. However, it’s just such a ginormous expense, and I’m not sure it’s the right decision. We could use the money for a much nicer house, with a garden and space for friends and family to stay, which would enrich DCs life in other ways.

Education means everything to my family. It’s our number 1 priority. If I could guarantee this private school would be substantially better than the state primary I would totally just pay up and be happy with the decision. But I am just not sure how much of a difference it will make to her and DS in the long run when there’s a good free option round the corner. I can be flexible on working hours ie work full time and send DCs to private, or part time and send them locally. I was privately educated - amazing, sweet little prep school which was the making of me, and then big all girls boarding school which I absolutely hated. I really want to get this decision right because both my schools had such a big impact on my life and personality. I know either option is not a guarantee and I’m so worried I’ll regret my choice in future.

A lot of my privately educated friends are sending their kids to state school because even in decent high earning jobs they can’t afford the fees. The only reason I can afford it is because my parents passed away and I can use my inheritance to pay for the fees. We’re definitely not in the same income bracket as most people who send their kids there.

I also worry about the politics. DH and I both hate the current polarised system and how unfair it is, so we’d feel a bit hypocritical choosing an elite private school when in an ideal world we believe everyone should have equal opportunities in education. The problem is there’s this totally amazing option (or so it seems) for my kids and it’s just staring at me, and I feel in my gut it would be wrong deny them this opportunity when I could afford make that choice.

Also - I feel the tides are changing slightly - in 20 years time will they be at a social disadvantage having gone to private schools??

So sorry for the essay but to anyone who has got this far...what would you do??

In response to your question @CFeatherstone, how did we know the education was better/equal at the state primary? The demographic makeup was very similar by the way (hospital consultants, London lawyers, maths professors, maybe more highly qualified and educated professional, and fewer business owners, than the private option).

• Although class sizes were larger, there were two TAs in the class, who were also experienced and qualified teachers. The children were (discreetly) divided by ability into smaller groups of 5 or 6, led by teacher or TA.
• Children's ability assessed on a weekly basis in key subjects, with children moving up or down sets for additional challenge or support as needed.
• The children had their reading listened to at least twice a week at school, daily for those who were only at the expected level, or below.
• Accelerated learning classes in English and maths; the standard was naturally high to an extent due to the intake.
• Public speaking opportunities every few weeks.
• Lots of enrichment - Outdoor Play and Learning, sports (some quite esoteric!), special interest clubs, forest school, music, shows, theatre, dance. Last time I checked there were something like 6 different choirs, some award-winning, and orchestras etc, it matched the private provision well.
• Children confident, well spoken, articulate. Behaviour excellent. (Obviously some demographic influence here too - it's an 'easy' demographic to work with.)
• Massively engaged parents, and cash for enrichment (PTA might raise £8k in a single fete).
• Well qualified, experienced and engaged teachers, and leadership who make the most of every teacher's particular talents, meaning French was taught by bilingual teacher, music and sports all had enthusiasts/talented teachers in those subjects, in the juniors some subjects taught by subject specialists.

In comparison I could see the prep schools had better grounds, but the state school worked hard to make the most of theirs. Talking to parents at the preps, and seeing their work, the prep children weren't progressing as quickly in reading and writing, and were only being listened to fortnightly. Parents who moved their children to the state from prep were impressed by the state offer. The only thing I cried for was the outdoor space and the junior science lab at the prep.

I'm not anti-private, and we are again looking at private for secondary, although I do have concerns about social mobility (though given our area, there's not much economic diversity even in the state school).

I’d challenge the notion that an independent school offers a richer cultural experience. We’ve used both systems and from comprehensive state to high ranking public school.
The independent creates a bubble that is nice and protective but limits children’s understanding of the world around them. Far from teaching them to be able to ‘mix with everyone’ they teach children to mix with people like them. The state schools taught my children that far from damaging their learning, supporting peers with special needs benefitted both parties. It helped them understand the degree of privilege they had and to see that it was possible to be very bright but living in poverty. The wider societal experiences of state education stood all of mine in good stead in their careers.
Musically we started with toddler music and at four my daughter wanted to play the violin. The local authority ran a Saturday music centre which we signed her up to. It was free and gave loan of a quarter size violin. She made a shocking noise! The others didn’t start until about six with one choosing flute and one going from recorder to bassoon about aged nine. All with county music scheme and in-school lessons. As they got better they joined school and county orchestras etc. The youngest didn’t because she went the ballet route instead. We gave them all private piano lessons, which helped too. Our daughter plays in hospital orchestra still. The others only pick up their instruments occasionally.
They did French from pre-school in a friend’s club that did cooking, craft and singing in French and this with French at nursery gave them a grounding to build on in primary French lessons and on holidays. Grandparents were fluent too.
Then it was sports - rugger, tennis and sailing plus the older two did fencing from secondary. They did youth theatre too.
Then our youngest did mainly dance and won a scholarship for sixth form because of it. Our son did a bit of dance but only a few years to support theatre and drama. They can all sing well but only the eldest took choir seriously.
We did provide a structured childhood as we wanted to ensure they had the same opportunities as their privately educated peers. It was quite a full timetable but they thrived and it was quite normal in our friendship circles. We don’t approve of children ‘chilling and hang around’ in large groups. We wanted them to develop a strong work ethic, to love learning and to aim high.

I went to private school and I would just say one thing. It's not just the money you need for the education itself but it's all the things that come with it. The school trips, the lifestyle that the majority of the school will easily afford with no second thought. Most girls in my class had ponies and holidays at their parents homes in Barbados and new cars before they could even drive (I didn't!) And luckily I never felt jealous. My sister on the other hand was in a class with particularly wealthy girls and she found it very hard.
Again first world problems, and you may be able to afford it but it's definitely another thing to factor in!
I wouldnt send my kids to private school as I didn't enjoy it at all, my DH went to a grammar so would choose that option but I know not accessible to everyone.

Your area may be different, but where i live it's quite noticeable that it's mostly the less academic children of those with money going to the private schools. I don't say this unkindly - the parents know this and are paying for the extra polish and smaller class sizes which will help their children.
The more academic children go to the state primaries and local comprehensives, even when the parents have money.

This has been a revelation to me (I was at a private boarding school). The private schools get good academic results from academically OK children and it can be a kinder environment for a nervous child. The state secondaries provide a real look at life and the academic kids thrive anyway. They also have friends right across the city and within their own community.

Ten of DDs three form entry primary year group have gone on to Oxbridge, with others at London conservatoires and various RG unis. What's noticeable about this group of ten is that they all have stable families who valued education in all its forms. They have all done music and/or dance to a high level, have been dragged around endless museums, encouraged to engage in debating etc etc. In other words, all the wrap around support that a private school would have provided has been done as after school activities.

Whatever you decide, be very wary about academic results. One top private school near me achieves amazing academic results by ruthlessly weeding out less academic kids at 11, 13, and 15. Even if your child isn't at risk, they may lose their best friends at a school like this. A level results are also massaged by poaching maths students from Hong Kong for year 13. I know one of the people who flies out to HK each year to identify them. If I were looking at a private school I would be weighing up the atmosphere and feel of the place and glancing at the results as a secondary factor.

Dilkhush Absolutely.

It depends on the private school. In our area the outstanding state school provides good academic education (but the question is how good, because most kids have tutors from year 4/5 to prepare them for grammar/private school entrance exams), but opportunities in sports, music, art are very limited.
In contrast, even the smallest private school in the area offers lots of sport (most children do some sport activity at school every day, matches against other schools, swimming lessons from the reception age), multiple music options- bands, trios, quartets, orchestras, music as part of the curriculum, art studios, drama performances, lot of school trips that do not require additional fees. It comes out as a wider educational experience. The biggest cost on top of fees is the uniform, but most use second hand sales too and there is no stigma to it, so some items bought new, some second hand. And not every child goes to skiing trip, in fact most do not.
It is so hard for the working parent to provide all these as extracurricular activities outside the school hours.

I do understand the social conscience guilt feeling, but I would look at the opportunities provided by both schools, and I would choose the school that would benefit my child most. I would not base my decision on what the neighbours or friends would think.

A good state school will only ever provide a good academic education and a nice environment. A good private school will provide a good academic education, a nice environment, a good cultural education, good manners (including teaching children how to dress and speak well), good soft skills and, a good network.

Err, believe it or not good state schools can also provide all of those things, Velveteenfruitbowl--and they are also the kind of things that you tend to get from an educated home environment. My parents took me to watch Shakespeare and taught me good manners and bought me my first suit when I did work experience and had nice family meals where we discussed the news and interesting topics. I would have learned all of the soft skills you describe even if the school had done nothing (as it was my state school teachers taught me lots of stuff like this too).

And I say that as someone who has used both private and state schools for my own DD and will also be using a mixture for my second child. I am not against either type of school and I have no horse in this race, just being honest.

OP, you need to really really do the maths on this one, looking at the full cost up to age 18, including all the extras, and then factoring in the inevitable fee increases over time, and multiplying it by two children.

Unless there is some outstanding difference in terms of academics, I would send my kids to the state school and have them tutored so that they have the option of switching to the private school at secondary level if that seems like a better option by that point. Over the last couple of decades, the gap between state and private education seems to have narrowed an awful lot, while the fees just keep getting more and more ridiculous. And do read what Dilk said above--all private schools benefit from the fact that their intakes are selected (either by entry test and income or by income alone), and a lot of schools game the system by "managing out" weaker performers and other dodgy tactics. This needs to be looked at carefully when trying to make decisions about how much added value this school will actually bring.

A good private school will provide a good academic education, a nice environment, a good cultural education, good manners (including teaching children how to dress and speak well), good soft skills and, a good network

A good state school, such as the ones my DCs go to provides everything there except the good network. They can achieve on the basis of what, and not who, they know. I'd rather they are part of a mixed pot of people than a narrow group of people who end up seeing themselves as superior.

I'd go for private all the way. For me it's class sizes unless yours will have big classes. It's set up for full time working parents, with activities afterwards and homework clubs. Ours has its own rainbows group too.
My DS will be going to state as I sadly can't afford him to continue, but he is in nursery at a prep. Massive difference to the council preschool he was in. They teach them more at private younger, as you say your Dd is thriving.

I expect when you visit the schools with 30 children in a class you will be overwhelmed. I certainly was. I'm sure the education is good, but why just choose good choose the best for your child.

I wouldn't make any decisions until you've looked around both schools, talked to the teachers and got a 'feel' for them. In our case, the decision made itself when we did this, because IME you get that 'yes' feeling about the right school. Do be aware though that you may have have an unconscious bias towards the private school, as you've been privately educated yourself and I think we're all drawn to what feels familiar.

Look at the Ofsted reports too. There genuinely isn't much point sending your DC private if they're going to get the same level of teaching and results from the state primary. Also, remember you can always change schools if the option you pick doesn't work out. I know you're anxious to get this right, but sometimes the thing that makes a school experience good or bad isn't anything you could've anticipated. Shit happens, sometimes a year group has trouble makers or one DC who makes others' lives a misery - you can't anticipate that.

I considered private nursery then a good state primary and I'm so glad I sent DC to state!
Not only did we end up moving (without much of a choice) out of area but my Mum also made a point that in any school, being of a different (higher or lower) advantage to other kids may single my children out. I obviously have no idea whether your child/children are of any higher or lower advantage than private school children but it's something to perhaps consider if so?
Also, I believe it's important for children to have local friends as well as a good education?

I would do state until secondary. If we had had a good state school for primary here when DD1 was due to start, we wouldn’t be paying for private.

I also value education first and foremost, but after 3 years of private primary, which DD1 has loved and where she thrives, I don’t actually thing she’d have been worse off at a good state school. And I’d have been much less stressed over making sure we had the fees.

I moved my son from an outstanding state school to a London prep school (one of those that are talked about all the time on MN) at 7+. This is what I find in terms of differences in the primary years..

Pros

• they cover music lessons, sports, drama etc in school. We do nothing on weekends!
• They play matches against some of the best schools in London and at a national level on several individual sports. If your child is sporty or musical, the exposure they would get at a prep will be far higher than at a state school. This wasn’t a criterion for me though as my son is quite average in both.
• it is a competitive environment and has pushed my son to work much harder than before. I would argue, though, that this can be replicated at home.
• Better exit to London boarding/day schools, but not sure if it’s the right path for everyone.

Cons

• expensive primary AND expensive boarding/day secondaries. You need to be comfortable with your financial future as you are committing to a high spend for a couple of decades.
• no luxuries (for us) for all those years - no luxury holidays, old cars, less activities outside of school etc. If you find something your child wants to do outside of school, that can have a financial impact as well. My son had to stop two of his favourite activities (golf and piano) as we can’t afford it any more.
• behaviour - I completely disagree with the previous poster that politeness and cultural aspects are taught at prep schools. My son’s friends from state school are far more well-behaved and can stop and have a proper conversation with me, while he and his prep school friends come across as overconfident little brats. This is my main regret.

If I had two children, they would be at state primaries with some tutoring and loads of activities. Not sure primary is worth it to go private. I would say go with your gut feeling from visiting the schools!

We had this dilemma and chose state for two reasons:

• we didn't want to limit their social circle to a narrow group of people
• we didn't want them to do all their extra curricular activities with all the same people they have lessons with, much better I think to have different groups of friends

If you have the choice, private all the way. There are some things money can buy and an excellent all-round education (i.e. not just the academic side of things) is one of them.

we didn't want to limit their social circle to a narrow group of people

I would argue that either choice is valid if you want them to meet a wide variety of people. When I went to private school in the 80s/90s my fellow students were mostly the DC of MC professionals, but nowadays it's much more about how much money you have. Many of my MC, professional friends who went private school simply can't afford it for their DC, whereas the kids at private are now more of a mix. There are still plenty of MC professionals, but in addition you have the DC of footballers, builders, entrepreneurs - so it's probably not the exclusive experience that some seem to think it is.

I am skint and my child goes to a free school. She is happy and does well. If I could afford for her to go private I would. But I'd actually rather have a nice house and holidays. Education is important to me but I'm not part of the wealthier world. I think if it's the most important thing to you as a family then yes pay. X

I guess I meant not many poor people @zafferana

State Primary and Private secondary would be my advice.
We did look at Private Primary but got a place in a really good state one and I’ve never regretted the decision.
Dd is at an excellent Private school now in Y10 and when she started in y7 she was a lot more mature and streetwise than her peers who had been at the school since age 3. By the end of y7 a lot if the kids who had been friends for years were getting a bit sick of eachother and there was a bit of squabbling. DD also has friends from her Primary school who are at the local comp so it much more connected to the local area if that makes sense? DS is currently at the same state Primary but will join his sister next September
If there hadn’t been a decent State primary we would have gone Private from R but it would have impacted our lifestyle quite a bit.

I've three children and we've done 3 state schools between them and 4 independent. It's been so many as we've moved from London to Buckinghamshire and also a lot of the school are single sex out here.

Even the not very good independent school was better the outstanding schools we had in London. It's just much easier to teach 20 children with a TA and a teacher than it is 30. I prefer the children having longer holidays, it means they get less tired and we can take holidays at less expensive times.

Extra-curiccular things matter less in KS1, but in KS2, a range of clubs, sporting fixtures, LAMBA lessons that Indies often offer is amazing. I find state schools curriculum incredibly narrow - I think the arts and languages are really important to children and you don't get that exposure with specialist teachers in a state school.

I think it very much depends on the options you’ve got available. Just because it’s private doesn’t mean it’s good! Some states may be outstanding but I wouldn’t want to send my children there!
I’m privately educated so am not at all against them but there are some very average ones out there but of course, some amazing private options.
I agree with the PP who said that some of the privates have the middle of the road, less academic children who the parents think won’t cope in the state system.
My private school was full of hard working middle class parents with a few more wealthy and a few assisted places. Some of the children I encounter from the private preps around us are frankly spoilt little brats with very few manners (eg throwing rackets at the tennis tournaments at the age of 7 and arguing with umpires..with the parents watching on and not having any issue with it)! I find it interesting that most of my privately educated friends have chosen state primary for their children but most attending the Preps I know around us have parents who weren’t privately educated. There’s also a split with the professionals more often using state primaries and the business people etc choosing private.
My children are getting an amazing, enriching education in a state (Church) primary and I wouldn’t change our choice.
We will look at grammar and if they don’t get in then private for secondary though.

Our local primary is full of privileged middle class families who spend a fortune on SUVs and luxury holidays and houses in the catchment area, and then have a problem with people like me choosing private education.

I think you must live near me OP our local outstanding sought after state primary is verrry much like that.

I think it depends on your child. Does she have some particular characteristic that means she will benefit from what private offers? For most children, I would say that if money is tight, choose the state option at primary and keep your funds for a future need. The exception is if she has some particular reason why state would not work well for her (eg if she can’t deal with noise and needs a smaller class size).

Remember you can always try state and then move her if it’s not working (assuming space in the prep). Harder the other way.

Quite honestly if the State school is good I personally wouldn't be considering the Independent option. With respect to @Velveteenfruitbowl, your children will learn to dress and speak well from you, you really don't need to spend an inheritance on that! As for children building 'networks' at Prep age, I'm sorry but that really isn't relevant. Personally, rather a lot of money was spent on my education and while I still have a good network of great friends from this, I can't say they've been any use whatsoever in any career sense.
With my eldest DD I went Private initially for 2 years when living in a very mixed area of SE London with poor performing schools..When we moved to SW London I moved her to a State Primary. If anything, she did better at the good State school. I do understand about wanting to give your children the same privileges that you yourself had honestly, but if you genuinely don't like our class ridden society, don't play a part in perpetuating it. It really is that straightforward and simple! Save your inheritance for their Uni years and make the smart State choices which you say are available locally. Your children will mix with a range of children from very different backgrounds from Lawyers and Doctors children through to Shop workers. I'd argue that the ability to find common easy ground with a whole range of people is invaluable.

Another thing to think about if all your neighbours’ children go to one particular school and yours go to another - especially if it’s a private school, with all that implies - is social isolation. You might think they’ll stay friendly because of sheer proximity, but they won’t.

Don’t forget diversity has to include economic diversity too. The children in my extended family who have only attended private schools are very gauche and extremely ignorant about the value of money and particularly how hard it is to earn it.

Very definitive statements there that bear no reality to our situation.

Very high performing prep in hugely affluent SE England town. you can’t swing a cat in the cat park for fear of hitting a Bentley, Tesla...

My child there on a full bursary. I’m a single working mother (part time). I drove a battered ford. We live in a flat. Never, not once, have I been made to feel inferior nor come across any of the children this poster describes.

And as for maintaining friendships locally - absolutely!! My child always gets together with friends from his time at local primary. Every holiday - meet ups at the park, visits to one another’s homes etc. Helped by fact in friends with mothers

car park!