Serious stuff. 5year old’s disruptive behaviour at school

[Bristolmum9]

He is one of the youngest in his year but that does not excuse his attention seeking behaviour. He now only attends mornings at school’s insistence but is still being very difficult. He is improving at home. We have referred him to a paediatrician and realise there maybe a vary of causal factors. We appreciate that he is a management problem for school.
What help should we expect from school? What can we reasonably ask for.

First - the OP may have agreed to a part time timetable - it’s not an illegal exclusion

If the child kicks off and hurts other children or staff he will be excluded - even for the afternoon to calm down

Agree with you Green Tulips.

Posters saying this is an illegal exclusion, NAS state reduced timetables are not unlawful. The situation is far from ideal for anyone dealing with the situation. Some schools have had to reduce TAs hours due to their budgets being reduced in real terms. As the OP recognises, for her DS to attend in the afternoon with no TA support could cause him distress and possibly places other children in the class at risk of being hurt. If you were a SENDCO faced with the choice, what would you do? Because I can't believe some on here are advocating having the OPs DS in school full time when it is detrimental to him and his classmates at present. He needs assessment and support before this happens in order to keep ALL the children safe.

Part time timetables are only legal as a short term measure working towards full time attendance either at this school or elsewhere. Schools cannot just throw there hands up, say they can't cope/ haven't got enough staff and then do nothing. It is an unlawful exclusion because it is preventing the child getting the help they need. If a child needs to be part time then there are serious difficulties which should be dealt with as a matter of urgency.
He needs to be seen urgently by an ed psych and support put in place. If a part time timetable is needed, the child will meet the lawful criteria for a ehcp assessment irrespective of any LA policies and if I was the parent I would be applying for it myself (see Ipsea website for template letters).
The school can ask the LA for extra staff support in the meantime if would enable full time attendance.The LA may say no but if they do they are leaving themselves open to a complaint and legal action.
The school should be providing work for all the times he is not in school.
Start a paper trail as evidence. If they phone or say anything send an email stating what was said as a written record of conversations.
Good luck.

Sleepy that’s all very well but at our school we are waiting 6 months + to get anywhere near an EP. LA provide almost no support, especially not extra staff, even when other children are at risk. What are schools supposed to do?

And yes, these children clearly qualify for an EHCP but it takes over a year and a few attempts to get one around here. The school is between a rock and a hard place : if the child is in school there can be serious risks to other children and staff, but there just isn’t the money to give the child the support they need. Put in place a part time timetable and at least you can reduce some of the risk.

It’s crap all round.

Have you considered putting him back a year? He is one of youngest in his class. He was adequately prepared by the school for Yr1. You said he is socially and emotionally immature for his age. It might not be SEN but stress of being pushed to grow up too fast without preparation the school should have given him.
Not saying don’t get him assessed, just that it might not be special needs.

• not adequately prepared for Yr Sorry for error

If there was a child in my DD’s class that was throwing chairs and their parents considered it “naughty”, I would be straight in to speak to the head and demand something was done!
Endangering other children and disrupting their education is not on! That child needs help, urgently.

If nothing is done to address his behaviour and you succeed in getting him back in full time, it will just be more chaotic for you and disruptive for him if he carries on and just gets sent home regularly. This set up at least allows you to plan, however inconvenient. It would be much worse to keep having to drop everything to collect him because the school will not permit him to stay if he presents a danger to others, which he clearly does.

It must be awful but I think you may be downplaying your home situation and the impact it may be having. Also please consider the other little children trying to get an education and having to deal with him behaving like this. It's really not fair on them either.

MoltoAgitato I think schools need to be clearer to parents what the law is in these situations and if they don't feel comfortable doing that, referring them to other agencies that can ( the LA one for a start and parent carer forums which are also LA funded). They can also tell parents what their rights are. They can stop telling parents LA policies as though they are law.

Schools must work within their devolved resources to help children with needs. They will never get external funding quickly. Most schools do buy in suitable services and get an EP in less than 6 months. They should also have access to outreach services too.

There are some views here which explain why some schools fly close to breaking the law.

Don’t use the word “Safeguarding”. The Safeguarding policy doesn’t deal with this. The SEND policy of the school does. They should be looked at by the OP.

I agree with admission. It’s illegal and even if the parent agrees, it’s still illegal. See my earlier attachments. However this gives the OP a way to negotiate help for DS.

Something like this sounds like might be the most beneficial referral www.growessex.uk/index.php

I do wonder if things are tricky at home, if then having the child spend less time at school is really the answer. That's not to say I'm suggesting the behaviour is just accepted, which is why I'd be digging around to see what alternative provision there is available.

The child behaves badly at home too, yet it's the school's fault for "not adequately preparing him for Year 1?"

Okaaaay.

Callme- the op said the boy was fine in reception. So that does not immediately strike as a parental issue. (And she has older dc too).

• being the youngest
• suddenly changing what school is like

Is obviously going to upset kids - some more than others. Of course the class probably do maths/eng in morning so even on half timetable he will still have to sit through it.

I probably said but my dc behaviour spikes with tiredness so maybe try a few quiet weekends. We had a busy long Saturday and today dc didnt want to go in.
Imo all the parties and stuff (even though mine was invited to so few) really dont help the youngest. Just when you want them to chill on a Sun afternoon, it's a party. But you dont want them to miss it because they may not get invited to others. (I think both mine get overstimulated at parties anyway)

The kid is clearly saying with his actions he doesnt like school it's too much. But there isnt really many other options. It's a pity they dont do TAs a bit like a cover teacher so they call for one and it be funded by the LA.

Throwing chairs isn't just naughty, it's behaviour that can cause serious physical and mental harm to other kids in the class. Poor classroom management and insufficient use of exclusions caused my dd to loose so much schooling, sensitive kids cannot deal with it. It sounds like he needs to be taught in an environment that's better suited to him, the change from reception isn't that great so I suspect it's down to teaching style of the year 1 teacher combined with him being mire assertive however as there's home issues to it runs deeper. It's not his fault, he's simply in need of medical, psychological and learning support, perhaps in a much smaller setting, and the OP needs family support to ensure this can be worked out, whatever the underlying cause to give him the best opportunities possible. Insisting he attends all day in that setting just won't work at present

Bubbles our school budget last year balanced to £11. With what extra cash should we pay for an EP and which of our other SEND children should go without because of it? Or perhaps we should make a staff member redundant to pay for it? Except then we wouldn’t actually have enough teachers. That said, we did save money when we lost a TA because they were fed up being punched and sworn at.

Don’t underestimate the shit conditions schools work in. No, they aren’t perfect but in many cases their hands are tied.

Most schools do buy in suitable services and get an EP in less than 6 months.

Based on what evidence? there is no national data and it varies widely across and within LAs. In many LAs you can only buy in from their service if it is part of an EHCP or highness funding application though it is becoming more common to be able to commission an EP privately in some areas.

Based on the services schools can purchase and money that is devolved to them. This normally includes EP time for the most challenging DC! You obviously need EP time for assessment and advice before any statement! It’s of less value afterwards other than for reviews. There is also SEND provision through devolved budgets. Where I was a governor we certainly spent this on TA time and adaptations. We never sent children home or said we couldn’t have a child due to steps in school or other difficulties we encountered.

I gather I might have knowledge of well run schools in, until last year, the 5th worst resourced LA in the country (now 17th worst resourced) but our budget did have EP time factored into it. Within those visits, the school scheduled who should be seen as urgently as possible.

Sometimes LAs have contingency funding for out of the ordinary funding for SEN. They can use places in special schools without a statement. However we are talking about 2 months where this DS has had an issue. It’s not fair on the other DC in the class but it’s not fair not to educate him either! Two wrongs don’t make it right. It is the role of the school to safely educate all the DC and use their devolved budget effectively. The school does not appear to be doing this. This is why SEN children are excluded in much greater numbers than other DC, especially those with behaviour issues, where other parents simply don’t want them and neither do the schools.

Many Special schools were closed in favour of inclusion about 30 ish years ago. Funding for nurture groups has disappeared and when I was working in a LA I had a very large budget for temporary TA provision to meet need like this. I sometimes authorised TAs for 25-30 hours a week. I also had an amazing team of peripatetic teachers who gave advice in such situations as this school finds itself in. Yes, those days have gone but all the money has been devolved to the schools. Some win via the formula and some lose out. However all schools have send money and all schools have money for EP services if the funding for the service has been devolved. Balancing a budget must have taken the needs of the pupils into account. It’s unacceptable if it doesn’t take the needs of SEN pupils into account . Schools cannot just budget for the “easy” DC and assume they won’t have SEND DC or, if they do, they will send them home!

Schools have a behaviour policy, a sanctions policy, a SEND policy, health and safety policies and an exclusion policy (all on line hopefully) which must be followed. The OP should read these carefully before any meeting.

My local authority has 3 Ed Psychs-for the whole county. The only 1;1 assessments they do are statutory ones for EHCP applications-arranged by the SEND team in the local authority. In all other cases, they offer sessions you can book at a local hall. Parents and teachers attend, hang around and then explain the child's difficulties to a trainee Ed Psych who comes up with some strategies without even meeting the child! It doesn't matter whether there is devolved funding available, there are no Ed psychs!

When you have a meeting with the school ask what you can do together to help your DS - make it clear you want to work with them.

My sons yr6 teacher asked me to put him on a reduced timetable on Thursday/Friday afternoons as he was very tired and he would frequently meltdown. I refused and within a couple of weeks strategies had been put into place to help DS and he was coping much better. Often a reduced timetable is suggested as it’s easiest and cheapest for the school.

My friend has a DD at the same school in yr 3 who has been on a reduced timetable since half way through reception -she still isn’t full time, school haven’t called an Ed psych in and she doesn’t have an EHCP! Don’t let it reach that point!

Sorry if repeating as not rtft but I would apply for a reception place in another school, I think it's hard to recover from where you are.

The illegal bit again.

It's not illegal. Informal exclusions are. Reduced timetables are not.

"It is not just young children who are being placed on part-time timetables. Parents have also told us of primary and secondary schools placing autistic pupils on reduced, part-time timetables. These are not unlawful, but they should be used sparingly and in exceptional circumstances to meet the needs of an individual child, and not because a school can’t cope or lacks resources. They are a short-term solution and should have clearly specified time limits."
www.autism.org.uk/about/in-education/exclusion/grey-areas-england.aspx

We do not know how long the OPs DS has been on reduced timetable. We do not know what time limit has been put in place, because she has not come back and said what paperwork she received with any details on it.

The focus should be on the child's best interests. It is not in his best interests to place him back in school full time and continue to place him in crisis. He's not going to be learning anything if he can't cope.

Adjustments need to be made, which is what the OP is asking about - what should school be doing to help her DS reintegrate full time. @Bristolmum9 you need to know what the triggers are, what the teacher and TA observe. Do they suspect ASD? In which case you can check out the NAS website for advice and best practice and I would expect the SENDCO to be implementing the advice NAS give in the classroom. SENDCO can also approach LIFT for advice. If the strategies do not reduce his meltdowns (so that he can then attend full time) the school will then seek an EP. However LA EPs have a long waiting list because there has been a massive increase in demand leaving staff under pressure with the workload, with staff then leaving the service. Parents are going private to get help. Should they? No, but that is the reality of the situation.

What was he like in reception, no bother but played, did he do group work when asked, does he have friends, can he read and write, did he meet the levels expected?

In yr1 have they done a soft start where they copy reception slowly adding in actives/group work.
Will he sit and work on his own/in a group/with his ta?
If the teacher just let him play would he be fine, does he kick off when asked to work?

What's his behaviour like at home?

This part time timetable is unlawful exclusion regardless of whether you have agreed to it or not. Each time your child is excluded the HT should provide you with official paperwork telling you the reasons for the exclusion and the length of the exclusion. I would be telling the HT I would not be accepting the illegal exclusions any longer.

www.ipsea.org.uk/pages/category/exclusion-from-school

They need to get their act together and call in specialists to help find ways and means of managing his behaviour. You should also ask for an EHC needs assessment.If the school don't agree to do this you can request it yourself.

www.ipsea.org.uk/ehc-needs-assessments

What are they actually doing to support him? Excluding him for half the day isn't the answer.

Does he need 121 support? Time out card? Opportunity to be in a smaller group?

They also need to be referring him for assessment ASAP. Excluding him for half the day is a common tactic from schools to avoid dealing with the issue. You need to advocate for your son to get him the support he needs.

Get some advice from the LEA and local charities for parents with children with SEN for advice or what the school and LA should be doing and your options.

spanieleyes
Some LAs chose to severely cut their EP service to try to balance their budgets in response to swingeing budget cuts by the Tories. Hence the ridiculous situation of 3 EPs for a whole county, which will then be very hard to recruit to because it will be completely distressing, soul destroying work for the EPs involved, limited to rubber stamping assessments agreed by the LA with no possibility for early intervention or actual application of psychology.
There are EPs out there.
Our local service is fully traded and has expanded hugely from 6fte when the LA ran it, to around 25 fte today.

Part time timetables can be an accepted part of a strategy (not the whole strategy) but I would question where the strategy is here. I might accept a part time timetable pending a visit from Ed psych in the next few weeks. I would not accept one with no on-referrals made and dates given.