Serious stuff. 5year old’s disruptive behaviour at school

[Bristolmum9]

He is one of the youngest in his year but that does not excuse his attention seeking behaviour. He now only attends mornings at school’s insistence but is still being very difficult. He is improving at home. We have referred him to a paediatrician and realise there maybe a vary of causal factors. We appreciate that he is a management problem for school.
What help should we expect from school? What can we reasonably ask for.

A very wise EY specialist once told me to flip it round... not 'attention seeking' but 'attention needing'. There could be any number of reasons but the fact it is, it feeds on itself and rarely gets better without getting to the cause.

Reduced timetables are not illegal. The guidance is that they are for short term only, with the agreement of the parents, with paperwork showing the reason why (assessment). It sounds like the school use the TA who is in the class in the mornings only to support the OPs DS, but cannot provide that support in the afternoon.

OP, do you have any paperwork from the school specifying why your DS is on the reduced timetable and what the next steps are?

For many kids with SEN transitions between activities, between lessons, between break time and back into the classroom, can be triggers. Different adults/kids entering places where your DS does not expect to see them (eg a supply teacher, an older child passing on a message) can cause anxiety, as well as sensory like lighting, noise (another child with SEN making noises can cause another SEN child to meltdown). Even a display changing on a wall can cause anxiety for some. If transitions and change are a trigger, then these need to be managed and the school SENDCO would be advising staff on how to manage it.

If a child is sent home, snd should be in full time school, it’s an exclusion. Let me know the law that says a school can do this. The child is being removed from the school. It’s nothing to do with a reduced curriculum. See attached.

If he’s throwing chairs and pushing kids around they probably wouldn’t even want to risk putting him in with younger students. Have you explored other schools to see if they can put him back into reception

The part time attendance is a red herring here. Whether or not it is legal, it has been deemed necessary. For a 5 year old who is swearing and throwing chairs. Things 'haven't been great' at home and the HT has said there's 'no easy fix'. This all points to a real problem and focusing on the reduced timetable will be at detriment to the poor boy who is in the middle of this.

I would, at this stage, put in an application for an EHCP. If he goes to specialist school or requires significant 1:1 in mainstream, he'll need one.

I don't agree that an illegal exclusion would be irrelevant, as that would give an insight into whether the school placement is going to work out.

But here's screenshots of the DfE guidance.

In this instance there is a safeguarding risk to the other children if the dictionary definition of safeguarding is applied ‘to protect against harm’.

I would consider the safeguarding of my child compromised if another pupil was throwing chairs, but I also appreciate that the child in question needs help and support, and is entitled to an education.

It strikes me that there doesn't seem to be a proper plan to access specialist services to identify why your son is behaving like this at school, and then advise the school about how to support him.

Shortening his school day isn't 'working' ie his behavious isn't improving. Was there any mention about how long this may go on for?

In the meeting with the Head, you need to push for a proper assessment with an educational psychologist. This process will involve both you and his teacher completing a detailed form noting what you've observed about his attention span, focusing difficulties, triggers for aggressive behaviour, what has 'not been great' at home, what interventions or strategies have been tried etc.

And yes incidents of his disruptive behaviour, reasons for reduced timetable etc all need to be in writing.

I wonder if because he's summer born the school would be willing for him to redo reception. you legally could have opted for compulsory school age into reception this year and considering it's the transition he's struggling with might be better than pt y1.

You need to insist that he is in school full time because if you take him home, they have less incentive to sort this out.

You also need to post this in SEN children.

Bluntly, he needs to have an educational psychologist assessment and for his GP to refer him for specialist paediatrics. Sure, it could be just difficulty growing up. But if he has additional needs and is being labelled as naughty, that will harm him.

I'm afraid, reading this, that your school seem atrocious. They're illegally excluding him, labelling him as naughty, and resistant to any suggestions that could try to ease his stress levels.

With children, behaviour is communication. He is communicating very, very loudly.

Part time timetables are not legal when the school insist on them to make their own lives easier. They're for the benefit of the child, not the school.

In Defense of the school, whilst a part time timetable may be illegal, it’s certainly been the only realistic option if L.A. support is poor. It was the only option offered to our school for similarly disruptive behaviour by the LA support team and from the School’s point of view at least they had an afternoon free.

We had a child of a similar age with far more severe behaviour issues ( smearing poo, destroying work, destroying resources such as iPads, physical violence etc) and the EHCP was refused twice. SENDS support was woeful and it was a complete nightmare to get them to agree to 1:1 in the EHCP.

From a reasonable adjustments point of view, the size of the school matters. A small rural school will have a lower barrier for reasonable adjustments than a large, 3 form entry city primary that has easier access to specialist services.

The thing is, the school need to be compiling evidence. My DD is probably ADHD and the school, also without TAs in the afternoons, are working hard with me to secure that evidence, so she can be supported. They are, in fairness, brilliant. Very inclusive.

My eldest is ASD and has been home edded for three years. We have an EHCP and are arguing specialist placement - a position somewhat strengthened by all the mainstream schools to be approached saying that they can't meet needs (including the one my DD attends). And he's not at all disruptive; just very anxious and with serious sensory processing problems. Prior to the EHCP, a school would have given him zip as he caused them no problems at all. The problems were all to him. Now his needs are set out, as one head said to me on the phone when explaining why they can't take him, "We'd need to set up a school within a school to meet that EHCP."

You need to get his needs identified if there's a hope in hell of having them met.

I agree with Lougle that, while this sounds like an illegal exclusion, that isn't the thing to be focussing on here. As I said before, the OP's son may need specialist help. An EHCP may well be the way forward.

How likely is it that the LA will agree to assess if the disruptive behaviour has only been since September? Because my LA would almost certainly turn it down. That was my experience with DS3 who has an ASD dx, had no issues in nursery or YR but Yr1 was just a disaster. Just issued a draft having applied October last year.

I think it can depend. DD1 joined preschool with no identified needs. Needs identified within 6 weeks of starting, then statement issued a year later. But she went to special school at 4, which at that time was rare (4 in 1000 4 year old girls went to special school. 75% of children in special school are boys).

dS1 was statemented to start primary - he had 25hrs 1:1 support in mainstream. He's Yr9 now, and at mainstream secondary but it has enhanced ASD provision.

dS1 has never had a meltdown in school or been disruptive and if you compare the academic side, he was quite a bit ahead of DS3. But he had toileting and self-care issues which DS3 didn't.

Both were DX as preschoolers though DS1 was just 3 compared to DS3's just 4.

DS3 has had reduced timetable, loads of disruptive behaviour and even a fixed term exclusion (1.5 days). The LA have refused at every point and I've had to start tribunal proceedings. The LA have conceded both times but it's been a long process to get a pretty naff draft EHCP. They have banded him as lowest needs so there's very little too up for the school (£1800) and it's a fairly small, semi rural primary.

When you say ok in reception
Did he meet all the eyfs targets
Were there any incidents at all?
How was attention and concentration?

Could he be ill?
Have glue ear or eyesight issues?

He may just be finding yr 1 too much sitting and writing.

My eldest (summer born) struggled a bit at nursery and then even worse at reception. We had a couple of sending home. But i could tell he was exhausted.
I was really strict with her because i worried about exclusion but behaviour often spiralled downwards.

(he is also very bright and i think age means that is ignored, plus school didnt differentiate the work.)
We didnt find another cause although i suspect adhd/pda. he is still behind behaviorally and socially at school years later.
I think it's underestimated how rubbish being youngest is.
Your ds has had to go into yr 1 with little play when other kids slightly younger going to yr r. He will possibly be 2.5cm smaller than an average child in the yr, possibly worse at sport. Have shorter attention span etc.

You need to know what triggers the chair throwing?

DD2 (not the DC who goes to special school) was 4yrs 2 weeks old when she went into year R. Year R was fine. Looking back, the reason it was fine is that she could self-select her activities, so anything she found hard could be avoided. Her teacher said she was 'so easy to assess' because the teacher would demonstrate something, like a repeating pattern, and DD2 would come to her 10 minutes later with a replica.

Year 1 was a disaster. DD2 is very passive, so there was no acting out. She just dissolved from the inside and developed fevers, vomiting and diarrhoea with extreme fatigue. It was stress, it turns out.

Long story short, after 3 primary schools and a period of home education, she was diagnosed in year 7 with ASD. The reason she fell apart in year 1 was that suddenly she had to do everything and everything changed.

www.suffolksendiass.co.uk/information-and-advice/parents-and-carers/exclusions/reduced-timetable

I’ve pulled this from Suffolk but you should speak to Sendiass, I know your DC hasn’t got an EHCP however there could be some underlying reasons why he struggles with change - autism, emotional reasons etc.

If you approach them and explain the situation they can best advise you.

From my knowledge of part time timetables in specialist provisions they are a last resort, they should be reviewed weekly and the local council hate them.

It would be worth speaking to the children’s team within the local council as well to see their take on it, given the poor ofsted report I can’t imagine they would be happy.
Also check that by keeping him there till 1230 that he’s also not getting his afternoon mark - not saying that the school would fiddle it’s not unheard of

You don’t need a formal diagnosis of anything to be considered disabled under equality legislataion, so the school should be making reasonable adjustments if his behaviour is having a significant effect on his ability to function.

You may want to contact some of the SEN charities. LAs vary wildly; ours is atrocious.

You don't need a diagnosis, but the impairment either has to have been present for ?6/12 months or is expected to be long-term. I discovered this when DS2 was having health issues and the PE dept were less than sympathetic. Until he was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome it was all a bit stressful.

I've had help from our SENDIASS but you do have to be a bit wary, another local charity isn't as independent of the LA as it first appears. But could be useful in a situation where you feel school may misinterpret asking questions about support etc as a criticism.

If things have become difficult since the beginning of the academic year, you need to know, apart from sending him home in the afternoon, what is happening to support him in modifying his behaviour in school. Does he have an IEP with targets that you can support at home? Is there a prospect of referring to an EP for additional targeted support?

It’s important to bear in mind that, in the past, schools could make a referral to EPS and had a certain number of visits per term from the EP allocated to the school. Schools could refer to the local Behaviour Support Team too. These days, with such tight budgets, those services are squeezed. It also depends on whether the school is LA or academy.

I would expect the school to be sharing targets with you and working on those, reviewing them and setting new ones if appropriate. After doing that, if there is little improvement, I would expect a referral to a outside agency and potentially moving towards an EHCP.

As far as the mornings only is concerned, it used to be the case that a part time timetable was possible in the short term, but that it should be part of a formal plan to reintegrate into school full time. I don’t know whether this still applies however.

My ds3 is one of the oldest in his year but really wasn't ready for year one. Thankfully they're at a small school which mixes years, so he stayed in the reception/year one class at the end of his reception year when the majority of the class moved up- he was the oldest left in the class by many months.

He's gone into the year one/two class this year and is absolutely thriving. Had he been at a larger school with strict year groups, it would've been a disaster for him, he never would've coped with a full year one group.

I think that kind of inflexibility from schools can be disastrous to the rest of kids lives. We need to be treating them all far more individually.

Think that you do need to "kick back" at the school a bit here, whilst being nice about it. When you speak to the headteacher, you need to be emphasising that son will be coming in full time after the meeting because what is happening now is an illegal exclusion. The school need to be working with outside professionals who can hopefully pin-point what is causing the outbursts so you need to be asking the school what are their intentions on solving this issue.
The headteacher's reaction will tell you a lot about what is going on or not. If they start talking about the school has not got the facilities to cope etc, then you know they do not want to try to resolve. That again needs to be rejected as a way forward as you have said that most schools are full. The school needs to take responsibility and resolve the issues or get to the point where the answer is for a transfer to a special school if the issues are really that profound.