Tiny school or large school?

[IsThisYourSanderling]

I'm trying to make a decision about whee to send my DS for school. He's only 2.5 but applying for nursery now, which is attached to one of the schools, which is why I'm thinking about it now.

Large school has 220 pupils, 30 ish per class and growing. Doesn't differentiate by ability within classes. Is a short walk from my house, across a lovely park.

Tiny school has only 33 pupils, divided into two mixed-age classrooms. Children a given work according to ability, as there's no need to keep groups of children at the same level, the numbers being so small. It's a 12 minutes drive away, no traffic. Very rural.

DS himself is very shy with other adults and kids, a little socially delayed, behind with gross motor stuff, but advanced academically. I feel like he might get lost in a big class, and hide his light under a bushel a bit. But is the small school too small?

Anyone have any thoughts? Are there major drawbacks to very small schools? I went to a lovely small village school myself, but it had seventy kids, not thirty.

My DC started in a very small school, but I was not happy with mixed age classes. Very happy that we changed to a larger one (around 200). Again if we stayed my DS would only experience two teachers. The smaller school was harder for my DS to form friendships (hardly any boys in the class and those that were there were very cliquey), he wasn't pushed academically as there were three years in the class with various levels of abilities and he was completely overlooked, not too bright to be noticed, not too behind to require attention. Absolutely no regrets in moving to a bigger school. On a flip side my DD was equally happy in both but socially a bigger school is a much more happening place.

You know your child, and if you're erring towards the smaller school, it's probably the right choice - you do have a bit of time (and of course, your views may change as your child gets closer to school age). I went to a small village school as a child and certainly thought it was wonderful - although I'm sure there are many who have had the opposite experience.

How straightforward would it be to transfer to the larger school if he did have friendship issues/suffered bullying/just outgrew the smaller school? I think that would be my only concern. Although of course, children may still face those issues in the larger school, but more children mean it's easier to find your tribe in theory.

For me, the fact he's going to find the academic stuff really easy and the other stuff a challenge, you don't want an environment that makes it harder to do the other stuff.

The friends, if he makes him live a drive away rather than next door, he might meet the locals at the park, but getting into their friendship groups will be even harder, but the kids he know from school are not local.

The in school sport will be compromised - he's likely guaranteed to be the worst in everything which will knock his confidence into never trying.

Of course that is if your analysis of a 2 year old is still valid when he's 4 or 8.

The questions I would think about are:

• How many teachers does the tiny school have? I am presuming 2? So your child will have 1 of the teachers for 3 years and the other for 4 years, or the other way round? If there is a clash with 1 teacher, or he finds them uninspiring, what happens then?

• How much time does the teacher actually get with each of the children? I have taught in a 2 class tiny school, and though in theory it sounds great, in practice it was, within each lesson: 'teach or support year group / ability group 1, teach your group / ability group 2, teach year group / ability group 4, teach year group / ability 4, repeat for the next lesson'. Obviously for some subjects the class wasn't grouped so tightly, but with such a huge range of abilities (4 school years in age = at least 8 in ability terms - the R/1/2 class I taught had children working at every level from effectively 18 months to effectively 9, despite the age range only covering 3 years), each child still won't get that much attention, or tbh that much teaching at their specific level.

• While mixed age classes may be great for bright children in the earlier years of each class, they can be really limiting as they reach the older years. There will obviously be lots going on in the classroom targeted at the younger year groups, so a bright P6 or P7 (or even P3 in the younger class) child may find very very little to challenge them.

220 is a small school, they are around 1000 here! Prior my kids went to a 100 child school with mixed age classes and it was ok at first but a lot of issues with friends as so few girls in the year

Gender balance is a key one to think about - if you are the only boy who doesn't like football across 3 year groups, that's really isolating.

DS was something of an 'outlier', particularly at primary, and really suffered for it in his 'not all that small' - 100 odd child - school, because the number of 'children like him' was very small. Transferring him to a 2 form entry - 60 per year - school was a revelation, as simply through statistical likelihood he had more 'neer peers' and thus a much richer social and academic group.

'Family feel' is lovely for a 2 year old. Stultifying for an 11 year old with nobody like them in the school.

I moved my son from a larger school where he was in a cohort of 60 to one where he’s in a cohort of 20. It’s been the best parenting decision we’ve ever made. I just wish we had done it sooner.

You,

The thing is, that in a school of 33 over 7 year groups (I think?), then your average cohort size is less than 5. That is VERY different from 20 - the OP's 'big' school only has a cohort size of 30.

The other thing that happens in very small rural schools is variability of cohort - so that total of 33 could have year groups with only 1 or 2 children, while others might have 7 or 8.

At the very least, if enrolling my child for the small school, i would want to know a) the cohort sizes in the school as a whole (it may be, for example, that parents remove their children to larger settings as they get older) b) the projected cohort size for my child's year and c) the %SEN in the school. In England at least, some very small schools become a magnet for families wanting a particular environment for their child with SEN, leading in some cases and some year groups to children with Special Needs being in the majority.

Oh I totally agree 33 across the whole school is vvvv small. It was more just offering a counter opinion to the “bigger schools are better” comments across the thread. Not for an ASD child who can’t cope with noise it wasn’t

Absolutely, though for my selective mute child with significant ASD traits (at that time), a highly orderly, rather old-fashioned school with an intake of 60 was a massive improvement on the chaos of his first school, despite an intake of 20.

It's a bit like the state vs private debate - certainly in the '20-60 per cohort' range, I would say that the individual school is more important than the cohort size (though I would say that a cohort size that avoids mixed year group classes is in my professional and personal experience preferable). Below 20, certainly below 10, per cohort is too small, especially once you start getting 3 or 4 year groups per class. 3 form entry (90) is OK, but I would say that at that level and above the size of the whole school is daunting and can lead to some individual children getting 'lost', unless the school is very clearly demarcated into separate areas - Early Years, KS1, KS2 with separate facilities, separate outside areas etc I have seen work well.

One reflection on the “difference” between this thread and other Mumsnet threads on small schools (and perhaps also advice you are seeing elsewhere). I don’t think we are all saying small schools are a bad idea in general. They clearly have many advantages. But 33 in the whole school is truly truly miniature. It’s not really a “small school” in the way most people would think about it - it’s quite a bit smaller than that! And so the disadvantages about friendship circles, having to teach too many different levels and limited opportunities for older kids become a lot more problematic. As a general rule a small school would probably suit your DC better, but I think this one is really getting into the “too small” category.

Really interesting points here. You've actually put your finger on it, Lindt. It's not that the larger school would be so much better for DS, it wouldn't; it's just that the small school is perhaps stiflingly small. Really, neither is going to be right for him: the bigger school will probably not meet his learning needs, not because of its size but its attitude. The small school will probably not meet his social needs. Not, as you say, when there's around 3 kids per cohort.

It's funny, because I've been talking to a friend who did what we're thinking of doing - sending her child to a school of 30 out of catchment, because her catchment school has 400 kids and her daughter has high functioning ASD. She admits her daughter has no friends at school, and no one to talk about books with except her teacher. But the big school would still have been too big for her and her sensory issues.

My DS is not ASD, we don't think, just quirky, with asynchronous development and mild hyperlexia. He is noticeably behind younger kids with his gross motor and social skills, but has loved numbers since he was a baby, and is counting and doing sums all day. This is why I think a mixed age class would suit him, so long as it's well taught. But I certainly don't want him to have no friends.

You've all inspired me to think about other local schools, and I've found one near our village with 90 kids. So three times the size of the tiny one, but less than half the size of the bigger one. They have a blog and it looks promising. Four mixed age groups with some overlap. I'm definitely going to follow this up!

That sounds good.

The only thing I would check, with mixed age classes, is how a very able child - or one very able in a specific area - has their needs met when they are the oldest in that class, and specifically when they are in the oldest class of the school.

It's easy to feel that a mixed age class is great when your able child is the youngest - 'Fantastic, they can work with the older ones!' - but it can be much less satisfactory when they are the eldest - 'Oh no, they did all this last year / the year before, and all their peers are now in the older class so they don't work with them any more.'

DS was a very able infant mathematician (added and subtracted 3 digit numbers and negative numbers in Reception for fun), and when he became a selective mute, one possible solution offered was that he should move from his R/Y1 class to the Y3/4 class. We could not see that would play out well over the coming years, so moved him elsewhere.

Bigger schools are often better resourced to help children with additional needs. Both with physical things and with staff with prior experience.

Ds is autistic and there is no way a tiny school could provide what his mainstream (average size 40 intake) school has.

Similar here. I wouldnt want my bright child in a mixed age class as that means an even bigger gap between most amd least able than in a single age class!

My suspected asd, very bright, daughter has done well in a bigger school as there is a pastoral worker who is knowledgeable about ASD, facilities for extension work, in our case the ability to separate by ability in groups which you cant do when its too small, she is put with other bright kids for maths etc.

I think at 2 years old though like OP you'd want small and nurturing (we chose a non school playgroup for this) and its hard to imagine yourself as a parent of a 7 year old who needs more stimulation and variety.
.

I wouldnt want my bright child in a mixed age class as that means an even bigger gap between most amd least able than in a single age class!

My eldest is “extremely bright” (teacher’s words not mine ;) ) and was in a mixed p6/5 class in p6. At our school they put a group of the more able in the senior year group with the junior one as they are more able to work well as a group/independently. Given my son had a reading age of 16 and we were told he was already ready for high school within a month of starting p7 it really didn’t hold him back. Schools and teachers really do know what they’re doing

DDs currently in a school of approx 100 pupils. Plus points... All teachers familiar with all pupils, they can do whole school events easily, more opportunities to get on sports teams, children's friendships cross age boundaries. Smaller classes

Negatives... It's hard for the children to escape each other. Minor squabbles grow as they can't get space from each other.

Cantkeepaway Thanks. Did your DS become selectively mute in school / as a result of school? Was it an intensification of natural shyness, or something more? Just curious really. Has it improved?

I remember my own mixed age classes so fondly, but obviously it depends on good teaching. I never remember having to repeat material in the upper ages of each class, we were always pushed on in imaginative ways, it was great. But when we were the youngest, we had instant access to work above our year group, which was great for my best friend and I. It was a 10-per-cohort school.

Just to add, the mixed age thing wouldn't matter to me if our catchment school (which is the only school locally not to have mixed age groups) was able to challenge the more academic/brighter kids. But what I've heard reared key is that it's really bad at this, lazy and unimaginative in its approach. My neighbour tells me her seven year old is doing basic repetitive drilling of phonics still, with no deviation or differentiation, and it's been like that since she started at five. She has gone from loving reading to hating it. This is naturally worrying to me, since DS knows all his letters (upper case, lower case, letter names, and phonics) and is getting kicks out of starting to sound out words. I'm thinking it'll kill his interest stone dead if he's made to do this for years on end once he gets to school. I will of course be asking the school what they do about children who can already read, but I'm sceptical, because I've heard so many bad stories.

For 'reared key' read 'repeatedly'

Op it sounds like you'd totally made your mind up before even starting this thread!

I would go for the 'bigger' school. (And I went to a tiny primary, but not as tiny as the one you've mentioned)

School induced selective mutism, yes.

Partially mended after a period of Home ed.

Undetectable by the end of primary by those who had never encountered it though I was nervous about the primary - secondary transition as there were still traces.

Utterly hilarious to his teenage friends! He competes in school debates, these days...

It very much depends on the child.

You appear to value reading above all else. No school should be teaching reading identically to all DC regardless of ability and it appears you are listening to hearsay rather than looking for yourself.

A school of 90 is small. It’s better than 30. However you cannot necessarily say a school with 200 cannot do all the things you want and the schools I know of this size are small enough for the Head to know all DC and there to be a genuinely inclusive ethos where all children are valued. I would actually visit the schools. I rather suspect your DC won’t be the only one who can (possibly) read before going to school so maybe ask about building understanding of what he reads and how the school will build on his high functioning skills. If you ask specific questions you might be surprised at what the larger school can actually do and they will have better sport, music and wider opportunities for friends. They can be invaluable for overall development.

Also, you should provide the books if you think the school doesn’t meet his needs. It’s not difficult.

Bubbles I’ll definitely be putting these questions to the bigger school yes, I think I mentioned that higher up? I’m not going to write it off completely based on hearsay. However, I do value the option muons of friends with experience of the school. I definitely don’t value rising above all else - I just want DS to be happy in his work as well as in his play. He’ll be going to the bigger school nursery, so that’ll give me the opportunity to ask questions about the primary.

Cant Glad to heat it got sorted. Why do you think he became selectively mute in the first place? Sorry for the questions! My wee boy is only two so this could just be lack of confidence, but I’ve noticed he goes completely quiet in some situations, usually when another adult is trying to engage with him, or we’re trying to join in an activity with other children.