Tiny school or large school?

[IsThisYourSanderling]

I'm trying to make a decision about whee to send my DS for school. He's only 2.5 but applying for nursery now, which is attached to one of the schools, which is why I'm thinking about it now.

Large school has 220 pupils, 30 ish per class and growing. Doesn't differentiate by ability within classes. Is a short walk from my house, across a lovely park.

Tiny school has only 33 pupils, divided into two mixed-age classrooms. Children a given work according to ability, as there's no need to keep groups of children at the same level, the numbers being so small. It's a 12 minutes drive away, no traffic. Very rural.

DS himself is very shy with other adults and kids, a little socially delayed, behind with gross motor stuff, but advanced academically. I feel like he might get lost in a big class, and hide his light under a bushel a bit. But is the small school too small?

Anyone have any thoughts? Are there major drawbacks to very small schools? I went to a lovely small village school myself, but it had seventy kids, not thirty.

Have you visited the schools?
You really get a different view when you visit and chat to staff.
My daughter goes to a 2 form entry school with around 400 pupils. I don't feel it's especially large and they have a brilliant family feel. The teachers know most of the children's names and the children mix well across year groups. It's quite a close knit community.

In our experience, larger is better. Daughter was in a year 1 class of 7 and the friendship dynamic could be very difficult. Son at same stage with 29, no such issues.

What will you do if you go for the tiny one and it closes within a couple of years? You need to consider that as with only 33 pupils and larger schools very close by, it is highly likely. I'm a primary teacher and unless classes are full to PAN, finances are very difficult in the current climate.

I would never go for such a small school myself. What if he's the only boy in his year group? Once he's gets to 9/10/11 and all the other boys are 5/6/7? I'm not sending my DD to our local school that has 4 classes and about 85 pupils. Instead she's going to a one form entry. I'd actually prefer she went to a two form entry; it's not an option but it would certainly be my preference from a social and teaching point of view.

Well there’s certainly a huge amount of feeling against small schools here. I thank you all for your input, though I don’t agree with all of your points. I do think there can be social downsides to a small group, but there are huge positives too - nurturing, family environment, sense of belonging, more individual attention, and this school has music lessons and offers two languages just like any other Scottish primary. Closure is not on the cards - there are many, many schools this size in northern Scotland - sparse populations and diddy schools are common here. It’s evidently a different story in England.

I’ll definitely ask to look round all three schools and see what they say. And I’ll be sure to ask about differentiation too.

Small schools are rubbish.
Limited friendships.
Mixed classes, stressed teacher ,lots of waiting time as she/he essentially attempts to teach two lessons in one.
Less money and resources.
No stretch work as teacher is too busy.

Sorry if that came across a bit abrupt! I do value everyone’s opinions on this. Some really good points raised. I’ll see what DS is like in a year from now, too. So far the pattern he’s followed suggests he does better / is more confident in small groups, as he’s a real introvert, but we’ll see how he develops.

See, I think it’s comments like the last one that have made this thread seem lopsided and have me going I went to a fair few primaries as a child and by far my favourite and the best was a small school of 70 kids. It was bliss. I went to larger schools to, and didn’t like them as much. It’s all subjective and dependent on what each individual child would most benefit from. ‘Small schools are rubbish’ is in itself a pretty rubbish comment

We moved from a school of 320 pupils to 70 pupils. It was the best move ever.

In the new school, all the staff inc. head and lunch time supervisors knew every child by name.

When they did plays and concerts, in the small school every child was included in a big way, whereas previously in the larger school, the shy ones would be put in a choir as there weren't enough parts for them.

Also, with birthday parties, in the small school it was typical to invite the whole (small) class.

There was a real sense of belonging which helped my children to shine.

Well I'm going to chip in from a different perspective.

Small schools are great.

They facilitate mixed-age friendship groups, which can help a LOT when a child is cognitively ahead or behind their same-age peers. Children often hang out in groups of mixed ages when spending time with siblings, cousins, neighbours, in holiday camps, etc. and it was a typical setup in past generations when socialising in extended family/neighbourhood groups was more often the norm. Having friendship groups of exactly the same age is a relatively recent thing, borne of large schools with large classes, but it's not necessary for normal social development.

They also fit extremely well into Vygotskyan educational philosophy and practice, where working with older children helps scaffold children's cognitive and social skills better than working with same-age peers. Then in turn, working in groups that include younger children allows the child to provide a scaffold for others, which helps to consolidate cognitive and social understanding. While this approach is less common in the UK than in other countries, it has an excellent evidence base for supporting child development.

Those who worry about no opportunities for team sports etc. - are there really no sports teams and activities clubs in your area? Around here, primary school has little bearing on sporting opportunities, and there are oceans of sports and other activities not tied to schools at all, so teams are full of kids from a variety of schools. Other extracurricular activities like coding clubs, acting classes, music lessons, kids' yoga, etc. still happen in small schools too but are also available locally in non-school settings.

OP - if the small school looks and feels right, don't discount it just because it's small. Talk to the teachers - do they like teaching in a small school of mixed ages (good thing) or would they prefer to teach in a larger school if they could (red flag)? Talk to the parents of other kids if you can - are their children happy, enjoy learning, and transitioning well to secondary (good thing) or do they dislike or feel ambivalent about school and are worried about secondary (bad thing)? Good luck

220 isn't large. My kids went to one that's a similar size. It's big enough to get the good bits of being a big school (day sports teams) and not so small that you end up with friendship issues. Imagine not getting along with another child at the 33 pupil school - it would be a nightmare for your child. Plus if there's an uneven boy:girl ratio or age imbalance then it could be really stifling.

Having read your updates, the differentiation might work in his favour now but they would end up running out of work to do later so he'd be repeating a lot of the same work in the older years.
My kids go to a secondary with 240 per year. Going from 33 in the whole school to 1000+ at 11, will be really hard.

My DD is 5 and goes to small primary, one clad per year group her class has 20 pupils.

I find it better as they get so much 1:1 time with the teachers and the teachers know them well and can help them in ways to suit them.

After reception, it mixed classes (so Yr1 and yr2 in one class) and it works well. The younger children learn so much from the older ones and the older ones enjoy the responsibilities they have in class.

Do Scottish schools not do small group learning? My DS is taken out of class with 7 of his peers for extended maths. My Dd is taken out of class as she has severe learning difficulties. They are doing the same topics as the rest of the class just with a different emphasis. This didn't happen until Key Stage 2 however (years 3-6). I can't imagine that the Scottish system doesn't make the same sort of arrangements - but you will know better.

My children go to a small school (220!) There are only 12 boys in DS's year and he's struggled to make a close friend (very sporty year and he's not). Don't underestimate loneliness of being a bit different and not having a buddy.

OP you don’t like my comments....

my children’s village school is 100 children. It is rubbish.
You asked for opinions but really just want to hear what you want.

I have two children who are well ahead of peer group. ( reading levels over two years ahead, full marks on SAT tests, gifted at maths.)
There is no stretch work for them, even though they are often in a mixed class where the work could be given to them.

In one class (12 children), there are three girls, in another class one girl. This is the reality of small schools.

How do you think a teacher organises two year groups....one waits while the work is set, then those children try to concentrate whilst the other year group is taught.

There’s not enough children to compete in netball, or football. Sports tournaments are a nightmare.

There’s not enough funding for TAs to do stretch work or intervention.

The dual intake school down the road has amazing facilities.

Don’t ask for options then dismiss them, my experience is the same friends, four other tiny village schools...all rubbish.

The thing is though OP that I'm guessing you loved your small school because you had great friends there. What if there wans't any one you clicked with? Or if everyone else in your age group was a girl and you were a boy. Or you don't like playing football but all the other boys do. You literally don't have anywhere else to turn to. And the trouble is you don't know if your DC will love out or feel isolated until you try it. Which is why so many are saying go with the bigger school as it offers a higher chance your dc will fit in.

33 in whole school or 33 in year group?

I’ve just moved dd from very popular (too popular) primary 32 in her class too noisy she was struggling to concentrate, teachers/staff stretched and results declining to smaller school 22 in her class seems much better for dd she’s getting much more 1:1 time with teacher.

I would say smaller generally better but 33 if that’s the whole school I would worry friendship options would be too limited.

Iris I asked for opinions on what people would do in my specific situation: hyperlexic/bright but introverted child with choice between a very small school that teaches by ability, or a school with large class sizes that has a reputation for being very poor at differentiating). What I didn't ask was whether all small schools are rubbish, but that's the answer you gave

I have totally taken on board comments about the social side of things, and I'll be definitely thinking harder about this and visiting all three schools in question. I do however feel there's been a slight bias against smaller schools on this thread - there are other threads on MN which are a lot friendlier to the idea of small schools, this group isn't entirely representative I don't think.

I also asked on a forum for parents with hyperlexic children and they all unanimously voted for the smaller school. Not all large schools are right for all children.

I'm sorry you and your friends had bad experiences, but what you describe with the staggered teaching and waiting around certainly isn't true everywhere, and doesn't reflect how lessons were taught in my own small school of 70. In our lessons, a topic was introduced and we worked to differing depths within that topic.

Redsky I think that's the most important issue, yes. I suppose you'd know by the end of juniors how it was going socially.

Unique Many thanks for that, glad you chipped in. I completely agree about the artificiality of age-restricted social settings within larger schools - children do benefit from mixing out of age. And yes, school plays will be a more democratic, inclusive affair with smaller numbers. The sports side doesn't really bother me hugely - I never managed to get selected for teams at my schools, and ended up being the one standing with a tray of oranges at half time We have a tennis club next to our house and I hope to get the children involved with that, if they want to. There's also a village cricket club and the park is hopping with footballers of all ages all weekend. They don't need unschooled to do it too.

School offers music, languages, drama, etc.

Unschooled?* That should say, they don't need school to do it too.

I've never come across a primary with an orchestra. Both children will be learning music both in and out of school anyway. DH and I are both former musicians.

Notonthestairs alas, our village school does not have extension programs like that, no. It's very much do the worksheet, get a sticker. Finished early? Here's another worksheet.

OP if you've already chosen the small school then go for it. You know your child best. My half siblings went to a tiny school and it was wonderful for them.

Our primary has an orchestra and they perform (at the varying levels you might expect!) locally.

I have hyperlexic children who are very bright and a small school would not have suited them as they would have outgrown it before secondary. We're lucky a larger primary has a greater variety of teachers and talents and resources. This year alone one has been entered for an orienteering competition after a term of orienteering. They've represented their school in netball (haven't had to go to an outside club as thwy have different main sport outside) and been part of an amaxing production put together by 9 and 10 year olds. They havent had to worry about including 4 and 5 year olds and could run with something really creative and funny.

Family do go to a very small school which appears v nurturing and is very much involved in the community. I was initially in awe... but their child is one of 3 their sex in their year. The other 2 exclude them, and has been some really unkind behaviour. There's nowhere to go in a small school so its intensified.

I initially envied the infant school when i had a little child and going up to school seemed a big leap. But by the time they're 7 I've really appreciated the variety of students and opportunities a larger school provides. Ive been the v.clever/but quirky kid amongst those nothing like me and school really does go easier when theres others like you around.

But of course choose the one you like, but go into it with open eyes. You could always move later if it becomes a problem when they're older.

I wouldn't go for a school with only 33 kids in it. My dds attended a school with around 100 children and even then it was too small by y6, though great when they were tiny.

I would def go for the bigger school with Moreno friendship opportunities.

Even though you say they don't differentiate, there must be extension task etc for the more able kids and extra support for the less able.