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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

School prayer - issue or not?

63 replies

GooseyLoosey · 09/07/2007 10:42

Sorry, this is a bit of a rant.

Ds is due to start the village primary school in September. It is a Cof E school but wholly financed by the local authority. There is no other state primary school for many miles and the 2 others that are nearest are also C of E.

I have just discovered that the school has a prayer which they require all children (including reception children) to say each day. They also wish me as a parent to sign a "parent/school contract" saying that I will support the christian ethos of the school.

I am an atheist. Ds has no concept of God or prayer. Whilst I am happy to allow him to make up his own mind about these things and do not criticise other people's beliefs in front of him, I have a problem with this. IMO at 4 he is too young to be able to make up his mind about anything and having God presented to him as a fact of life on a daily basis shows a lack of respect to our family values. I do not want him to be praying on a daily basis until he is old enough to understand the concept of prayer and accept or reject it on his own account.

I do not want to take him out of the local school as I feel that it is important that he is educated within the community in which he lives, in addition, there really are no alternatives.

Do you think that I should say anything about this? I do not want to be labelled on day 1 as the difficult mother from hell or to make ds stand out from his peers but this really does cut across issues which dh and I have strongly held and considered views on.

OP posts:

akaJamiesMum · 09/07/2007 10:49

I am a non-christian too. My DS will start at the local schoolin September which is C of E. I have always said that my son can explore spirituality when he is faced with it and wants to know more. I think this will start with the daily christian ethos of his school.
As a child we were not taken to church and the whole christian approach I learned came from school and daily prayers. I didn't understand it but it was no big deal - just something I did every day as part of the school routine.
Unfortunately I don't think you have a choice - or not enough of one anyway. Either you agree or you ask the school not to include him in the prayers - which may make him feel an oddity.

katelyle · 09/07/2007 10:53

I had a huge problem with this - fortunately the school my children go to interprets its "broadly Christian ethos" quite widely. You can withdraw your child from RE and assemblies if you want to, but I think that's quite a hard thing for a child to do.

Have you discussed it with the head teacher?

Hulababy · 09/07/2007 10:56

I believe in state school that you can choose to opt out of religious worship. You would need to go and speak to the school about your concerns an to ask for your son to be exempt.

choosyfloosy · 09/07/2007 11:00

Really feel for you tbh. I know somebody in the only Jewish family for miles in her area and her dd is already coming home saying that she loves Jesus. A bit unsettling to say the least but she doesn't have much choice re schooling.

Blu · 09/07/2007 11:03

Sympathies.
I would make a decision as to how to handle this based on various factors, and would veer between signing the letter and then consigning it mentally the bin, taking it up with the head teacher and governors, or asking for DS to be removed from the prayer bit (I wonder what happens if you decline to sign the Christian Ethoc thing? I would ask that it be repolaced with a school/home agreement that confirms that you support the educationl and social aims of the school, etc but leaves out the christian bit.

However, whatever you do, I think it would be a good idea to write to both your LEA and your MP about this. It is iniquitous that the only available state schools ask you to sign up to a religious ethos - and is an iniquity facing thousands of parents in rural areas.

Yurtgirl · 09/07/2007 11:04

I for one wish my kids school had more of a christian ethos and education than it does.

IMO if its a C of E school you should accept the daily prayer or put him in a different school.

As a C of E school the daily prayer is surely just the beginning. There will be loads of things later on you probably wont like either.

DrNortherner · 09/07/2007 11:09

I agree with Yurt Girl. My ds goes to a C of E school, there are 2 muslim children in his class and they are not removed from daily prayer.

The prayer is jut the begining, assembleies often have a religious edge, regular visits from local vicar, weekly TAG (thinking about Goa)sesions, christmas nativity, Easter etc etc.

You could explein to your ds that some people beleive this, but others don't?

DrNortherner · 09/07/2007 11:10

Thinking about Goa?!!! Of course I mean GOD.

EnidJane · 09/07/2007 11:13

lolol

would much rather think about Goa

Original poster

GooseyLoosey · 09/07/2007 11:28

Thanks all. Katelyle - tried to mention it to head at an open evening for parents (just after I had discovered the existence of said prayer). Her response to my very tentative comments were "what do you expect - its a christian school". I wanted to reply that it was also the local state funded primary school and what I therefore expected was a modicum of consideration for my values - was however too craven to do this!

Thought about opting ds out but do not want to make him stand out from the crowd so will not do this. I agree that the prayer is just the start, I know that they all trot off to the church from time to time for services and of course there are the assemblys. Unfortunately Yurtgirl putting him in a different school is not possible as we live in a very rural area and all of the schools within about 10 miles are C of E.

Blu, you summed up my options nicely and I'm not sure that I do want to take it up with the school but I do think that state schools should not be overtly religious where parents do not have a choice.

Think I may try taking it up with MP - do you think there would be any general support for not allowing state schools in rural areas where there are no alternatives not to be church controlled?

OP posts:

Hathor · 09/07/2007 11:33

This is exactly why faith schools should be done away with. The fact that we live in a broadly multicultural, multi-faith country, yet many people have no choice of local state education other than a faith school is wrong. Belief and faith should be a family choice not imposed by the education system.
Unfortunately we have to put up with it.

You have a legal right to withdraw your child from the religious elements of school. But people rarely do so you will be making an exception of your child.

geekgirl · 09/07/2007 11:36

LOL, I spent several minutes then puzzled by the 'goa' reference

if it makes you feel any better, Goosey, my dc are at a non-religious community primary and still have religion rammed down their throats at every opportunity

it's upsetting and not right, but I don't feel there's much I can do (and I'm a governor!) - whenever I've mentioned it to the head or the board of governors I've felt like I've got little horns sprouting from my forehead judging by the dismayed stares I got, so it's allowed to continue unchecked.

geekgirl · 09/07/2007 11:37

mine have even started putting their hands together before mealtimes occasionally - really makes me sick

sorry, this is probably not helping...

choosyfloosy · 09/07/2007 11:39

Don't like faith schools at all but at the very least where they are the only choice they should take the 'road less overtly religious'.

Don't know what to suggest. Am just so lucky that nearest school is a community primary and that it has 2 other nearby schools competing so is more open to what parents want. And I'm a churchgoer myself, if not much of a Christian.

My only answer would be to get on the governing body and help steer them to a route whereby they are content to let their actions speak their faith, rather than forcing parents to sign up to this sort of thing.

Yurtgirl · 09/07/2007 11:41

If no other local school is suitable or near enough and you cant cope with a daily prayer at this one my suggestion is - MOVE!!!!

Hathor · 09/07/2007 11:42

Oh yes good idea Yurtgirl.

NKF · 09/07/2007 11:44

I think that as an atheist, a CofE school is not right for your child.

geekgirl · 09/07/2007 11:45

yurtgirl, so only Christians are allowed to live there?
as I said, mine are at a community primary and have 2-3 prayers a day

why can't religion be considered something that is done within the family? A private choice for people?

Hathor · 09/07/2007 11:46

But, the OP says "There is no other state primary school for many miles and the 2 others that are nearest are also C of E. "
Why should she have to think about moving house or commuting a long way just to get a state education, which should be avaialbe to all regardless of faith or non-faith?

NKF · 09/07/2007 11:49

I can see that it's maddening and a problem but unfortunately for the OP, the school is a Christian one. It has an ethos and a value system but she thinks they shouldn't be expressed because she doesn't share them.

BellaLasagne · 09/07/2007 11:50

Have you visited the other 2 CofE schools to establish their views towards atheists?

Speccy · 09/07/2007 12:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster

GooseyLoosey · 09/07/2007 12:03

NFK - my problem is that I don't think that any state school should have a religious value system. There are also degrees of expression and a daily prayer recited by all children goes too far imo.

Bella - one of the other nearby schools is so over subscribed it is impossible to get in to it unless you live very close and the other is generally not a very good school.

Thank you for your constructive suggestion Yurtgirl - I will give it the consideration it deserves!

OP posts:

BellaLasagne · 09/07/2007 12:06

Good point Speccy, even if you had a non-CofE school available locally GL your DS would still be required to learn RE unless you pulled him out.

You need to be able to talk to each of the Heads, or the governors if necessary, to establish where the boundaries lie between your own family beliefs or ethos, and what the school will provide.

Don't forget that a Christian ethos is mainly about mutual respect, tolerance and love.

frogs · 09/07/2007 12:11

Goosey -- the problem with raising the issue with your MP is that the school will originally have been a religious foundation, and the land and buildings may in fact still be owned by or (if it is a VA school) partly funded by the CofE. So it's not as simple as saying "The state should abolish all faith schools" because although the govt may provide some or all of the running costs of providing education, they probably don't actually own the school as such. So short of the govt compulsorily purchasing the land and buildings of every church school in the country, they're not really in a position to change the status quo, even if the political will was there.

I don't think any great harm will come to your child from taking part in fairly low-cal churchy stuff. Given that Christianity forms the cultural basis for much of the UK's heritage (art, literature, music), you could argue that it is culturally beneficial to have at least a nodding acquaintance with Christian practice and belief.

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