School prayer - issue or not?

[GooseyLoosey]

Sorry, this is a bit of a rant.

Ds is due to start the village primary school in September. It is a Cof E school but wholly financed by the local authority. There is no other state primary school for many miles and the 2 others that are nearest are also C of E.

I have just discovered that the school has a prayer which they require all children (including reception children) to say each day. They also wish me as a parent to sign a "parent/school contract" saying that I will support the christian ethos of the school.

I am an atheist. Ds has no concept of God or prayer. Whilst I am happy to allow him to make up his own mind about these things and do not criticise other people's beliefs in front of him, I have a problem with this. IMO at 4 he is too young to be able to make up his mind about anything and having God presented to him as a fact of life on a daily basis shows a lack of respect to our family values. I do not want him to be praying on a daily basis until he is old enough to understand the concept of prayer and accept or reject it on his own account.

I do not want to take him out of the local school as I feel that it is important that he is educated within the community in which he lives, in addition, there really are no alternatives.

Do you think that I should say anything about this? I do not want to be labelled on day 1 as the difficult mother from hell or to make ds stand out from his peers but this really does cut across issues which dh and I have strongly held and considered views on.

I agree with you Speccy, I will not remove him from any part of the school day. I can think of nothing worse than making a 4 year old stand out from his peers!

Bella - I have no problem with my dcs being taught about religion in the same way that they will be taught literature and history. It is an important part of society and understanding different people's attitudes. However, saying prayers daily goes way beyond this and presents the Christian God as a fact to young and impressionable children.

I also wonder if I am busy teaching my son at home that there is no God and he repeats this at school if they will think that I am not supporting their Christian ethos in an adequate way.

Frogs, I know in general that you are right about church ownership. However, village school was built very recently and I know that local authority owns land and site and funded the build. I suspect that in general you are also right though in observing that there is no political will to change anything. It is just making me very angry and I feel I have to do something!

I know you're right Speccy. I just can't get my head around the praying thing, every bit of me screams that this is wrong!

GooseyLoosey - many people object to state faith schools but, unfortunately, from your point of view, they do still exist and your local one is one of them. Yurtgirl probably has the best solution.

Also, I think schools work best for children when there is some degree of consensus between the school, the parents and the child as he or she gets older. To be antagonistic to something that is quite fundamental to the school (ie belief in God) seems to me to be almost unworkable.

Can you frame it as daily meditation? Or the time when you think what you can do for other people? Then even if the school frame it as prayer and talking with God, you are giving him an alternative belief system which nonetheless allows him to fit in?

I'm sorry, I do disagree that he's not likely to pick up either what the school believes or what his parents believe - I think parental and school beliefs and practices do have some influence, even if for some children it means influencing them to go and do the opposite!

The whole POINT of taking it up with your MP is to highlight the fact that since the state capitalised on the CoE's (admirable) history of providing education / buildings, there is often no alternative to a religious education!

Parents who support faith school rpovision talk eloquently about the 'right' to the choice to have a CoE or catholic - and now muslim or hindu state education...the state should have at the same time ensured a secular choice!

I understand the point about 'no great harm...cultural history of this country' - but that is a pragmatic compromise. Personally, i think that having to negotiate with your child that a great deal of what they are taught at school is something you simply don't believe might undermine the school's authority on other things. I know, I know, it's a good skill to have, to challeneg belief and be analytical, make up your own mind etc...but I think 'take part in an act of worship or be left outside the hall on your own' is a pretty dodgy choice to foist upon a parent in a state education system!

But Speccy, I was never taught that Father Christmas could forgive my sins, or that the Easter Bunny would not like me to masturbate.

I think better for atheists to avoid church schools. Obviously there are some people who are prepared to fight battles with their child's educational establishment (the Christian girl and her chastity ring comes to mind) but I think finding one that suits and supporting it is by far the easiest thing to do. And by far the best thing for the child.

But God is not being presented as a story but as a fact. Still, I guess from everything that everyone has said that (hopefully) the dcs will make up their own mids depite what they are taught in school.

NKF - I agree that I cannot be antagonistic to the school once I have committed my children to it. I just need to go through this rant first and then I will resign myself to it and dutifully turn up smiling at nativity plays and harvest festivals etc.

ITS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

There, feel better now.

As a practising Christian I totally agree with Blu's views that in rural or other areas where there is no practical alternative schooling (suburban Bristol is apparently packed with C of E schools too), the school HAS to take a sensitive line with children from other faiths or none.
Goosey, is the school already aware (eg from application paperwork) that ds comes from an Atheist family? Surely you cannot be the first parent to express concern about this issue?
Good luck with resolving it.

No school should force an act of worship on the children. It should be presented as an option to all.

I do think they should all attend as a school community. But any well trained teacher shouls frame the assembly appropriately.

I was a childrens and youth worker for a Christian organisation and regularly took assemblies and circle times etc.

If I was leading a prayer I had to say something like:

"I'm going to pray now. I would like you to listen to what I say and if you like it or agree with what I say, you can say Amen because that means 'I agree'."

And certainly never "Let us pray" -

ANything else I said was prefaced with "Christians believe" or 'the Bible says' etc. Never "you must", "we all" etc.

If I'd said anything different I would have been chucked out of the school.

You cannot make children pray or worship. But I do think they can be in the same room as someone else who is doing so.

I think having assembly etc as a quiet time of reflection would be the way to go.

I am a Christian, but not a particularly fervent one. My dd attends a "non-Denominational school" in Scotland . We seem to ahve a choice of two types around here; non-denominational and Catholic. I don't know about the make-up of the Catholic schools, but dd's school has a mix of ethnic white scottish kids, and some kids from other backgrounds; a couple of Polish kids (thought they would be catholic, tbh, but maybe not...), a couple of Asian, judging by their names, Muslim, a Girl whose mother is, I think Thai, two African girls, and some Chinese.

The amount of Christianity my daughter came home with during P1 surprised me, even though I don't object. Regular hymns at assembly, prayers, bible stories etc. It turns out the Head and one of the P1 teachers are bastions of the Kirk!
However, she has, in fact, learned a lot about Islam and Judaism as well, this year- she knows more about Islam than I do, and she is only 5!

Dd is already quite capable of understanding that although we might believe in Jesus, many people don't, and many people believ in different Gods/ things. She rather fancies being a Hindu, actually, because she likes Ganesh!

GL, I take your point, but I wouldn't worry too much about it- you don't really have the option of sending ds to another school. You could explore the option of removing him from religious aspects of school, but i agree that he would feel "different" which is a big deal for a 5 year old.

I don't think he is going to becaome a Christian before your very eyes- keep explaining that that is what some people believe, but you don't, and he is more likely to follow your way of thinking than anyone else's.

It makes me angry that religion and schools should be mixed like this. All schools should not be linked to any religion

Religion should be taught by the family if they want their child to follow one. Schools can teach about religion but not so a child is indoctrinated into a certain religion..

Rant over

GL - I think I would send him to the school, return the agreement with a simple line through the word 'Christian' (and enclose a nice note explaining that whereas you are "confident that Christian values will give a happy school environment and are happy to work with the school in ensuring that your child keeps to rules etc, you cannot in conscience agree to pro-actively support a belief in god or genuine particpation in acts of worship...you are sure that as the local school for the full range of children in the area, they will understand....)

And then I would write to my MP!

If I was the Prime Minister (I tell you this now so that you can vote against me in due course with full knowledge of the facts!) I would send aout a decree saying that:
In 12 years time, all schools with runing costs funded by the LEA must have admissions criteria in line with the LEA, must make no demands of religious affiliation, belief or attendance on parents, nor include any activity involving acts of worship or declaration of belief in any god.
That in 6 years time they must inform the LEA whether they wish to go private, turn the school over to the LEA (in which case the LEA would be obliged to pay the capital and land costs to the religious establishment that owns them, at full market value as a school), or continue as a foundation, grant-aided/controlled school, but operating within the admissions criteria above.
Acts of worship in schools would also be removed from the NC.

Schools COULD have prayer rooms, visits from vicars/imams etc who held acts of worship as optional extra activities - rather like a guitar club or football practice.

I would be prepared t accept consultation on the timescales and some terms of all this - but the timescales are designed so that no-one with a child currently in the system would be affected, and that schools would notify their planned change of status with time for parents to make decisions.

Would you vote for me?

I'd vote for that Blu. I have long been of the view that something like this needs to happen. I don't think your policy will be a vote-winner though. Because I suspect that more non-Christians accept the C of E's role in schools and the apparently linked high educational and pastoral standards, than are as concerned as GooseyLoosey about a Christian ethos. Most of the people I know who are not practising Christians whose children are at Church schools enjoy a good mutter about indoctrination, but are more than happy with the SATs, in a nutshell

I agree with Blu

NKF - it is not simply a matter of 'oh you could move house' The state has a duty to provide unbiased education for all.

Traditionally the Church stepped into poor areas to set up schools, which is why we have all these Church schools now. This is happening again with the increasing number of city academy secondary schools. There is the opportunity for the CofE or any other faith group to step in with funding. Which they do in some areas.
It is all very well saying that a bit of moderate Christianity won't affect the child's beliefs, and that atheists should just put up with it, but what if the Christians or other faiths on here had no choice but to send their children to a moderate Jewish, Muslim, or schools of other faiths than their own?
Belief has no place in education unless the parents choose it (which they can do by paying). We should leave faith and belief to the faith institutions to practise with the willing participants who choose to attend.
The state does however have a duty to educate our children about religion in RE. Religion plays an important part in the culture and history of society, not just in personal faith.

It's whether you can be bothered with the battle too. If you can - and some people feel strongly about it - then go for it. But it seems odd that for someone who is such an atheist that a school prayer annoys her to be sending her chile to a CofE school. School is such a big part of a child's life, it's really worth making a considered decision earlier I think.

I have moved in order to send my lo to school of choice - from England to Wales for reasons of language. I have peanuts money wise so its by no means easy for me to do. But I would do it again if I felt strongly enough about it.

Clearly NKF and Yurtgirl, you have acted on your principles. In the case of religion, it should not have to be that way.
I guess in the case of Welsh, I would have done the same as Yurtgirl.

I would definitely vote for you Blu - could you hurry up and arrange this for the next election?

My dilemma is to just accept this as it is the easy thing to do but seethe inwardly for the next 8 years or to attempt to raise the issue knowing I am almost certainly going to fail and sour my relations with the school in the process.

Blu - my solution with the contract was to quietly lose it and see if anyone says anything.

One thought occurs to me, the European Convention on Human Rights provides that "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes ... freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance". I wonder if they are denying my child this basic freedom?