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does a school have to consult parents before implementing a 4.5 day week?

232 replies

fivennotfour · 10/02/2019 09:10

got letter home last week. After the summer, school will only be open 4.5 days instead of 5 due to budget retrains.

there will be limited placed for the Friday after school club - probably nowhere near as many needed. Many working parents will be shafted.

Anyhow, there was no consultation by school. just a letter letting us know that these changes will come.
Can they just do it.

OP posts:
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OhDearGodLookAtThisMess · 10/02/2019 16:10

No one's "blaming" parents for previously having given no shits but it certainly seems true to say that most parents' only concern when there are political issues regarding school funding is if it happens to affect their childcare arrangements or SEN provision (not unreasonably).
So, when teachers strike, there's outrage. Even though we've been trying to tell people for years how bad things have been getting. Teachers are leaving the profession in their thousands, but no one cares until their little Jimmy has had a supply teacher they don't like for a term. I would point out that it seems to me they're bloody lucky to have any sort of qualified teacher in front of the class these days.

immortalmarble · 10/02/2019 16:33

What would you propose they do?

What should they do?

SciFiScream · 10/02/2019 16:33

I'm in my 40s and went to High School in Edinburgh. It was 4.5 days back then (and actually Primary was too) was brilliant! Really brilliant.
East Lothian only open 4.5 days a week too but we've been living with this for decades so everyone is used to it. Childminders, after school clubs, compressed hours and working from home, part-time hours - all part of the solution.
There will be a solution, hope you can find it. The rota suggestion sounds good (get together with 3 other parents?) Or hire someone S5 or S6 to look after your children on a Friday afternoon? I did that when I was in S5 and S6 (16/17 years old)
The really issue is with it being a Friday - it's really easy to suddenly take a long weekend away so unauthorised absences (or being "unwell") might go up. Doing it on a Wednesday is better.

Walkaround · 10/02/2019 17:39

CleverWittyusername - but schools have been warning for a couple of years at least that shortened school days are on the cards, and have been warning about the funding crisis, and warning that increasing employer pension contributions, pay, apprenticeship levies, etc, etc, without increasing budgets to fund this, means current provision is unsustainable. Yet I don't see millions of signatures on petitions for debates in Parliament, I just see people doing nothing to complain about it until hit in the face with the reality - ie when what everyone was told about in advance actually comes to pass, rather unsurprisingly as it happens.

CleverWittyUsername · 10/02/2019 18:16

@Walkaround maybe you missed it earlier, but I was a secondary teacher until recently and certainly haven't been saying or doing nothing about it in the past years. I know first hand how unsustainable the system is and how students and staff are constantly poorly treated, to some extent why I left being part of it. I've been out on strike, I've marched, I sign petitions, I email my MP and attend his surgery when I've needed to, and don't feel angry at the school or staff. Of course I'm angry with the people above them who are not funding the schools appropriately and who take away provision. But I'm understandably worried about our own situation now it's been dropped on us, immediately after reception application deadline. I suppose I feel like I have not been able to make an informed decision, I can understand why they've waited, but it doesn't make their timing right.

To the PP who asked I unfortunately don't have any magic solutions, I wish I did, I of course want teachers to have a better work life balance and them to feel happy so they can do what they love without fear of redundancy over them, with properly equipped classrooms, no bullying, no academies making up their own policy resulting in long term sickness, no SEN support, endless cover and unqualified staff leading lessons. I hope the change does avoid staff cuts. But I worry that if our school makes it work, more schools will do it too, blood out of a stone style, and nobody ever properly funding schools.

I can understand all this, all the logical reasons why they've made this decision, but at the same time worry when I find myself in the same position as OP. Which is if school can't offer guaranteed club places for all children needing it, I am going to struggle with paying for extra childcare to continue to work on Friday afternoons. It's been presented as fait accompli with no clear info about the club and of course nobody around this weekend to discuss with.

Walkaround · 10/02/2019 20:15

Clever - sorry, yes you have every reason to be worried and asking questions about what else has been considered and what else is being done by the school, but in all honesty, primary schools, generally being smaller than secondary schools, are in a particularly appalling state, financially - only the larger ones have any hope of continuing financial viability without massive restructuring and strong federations with other schools, sharing headteachers and other costs. As for not telling parents until after applications have gone in, as you know, to do it the other way round would be the financial death knell of a school already struggling with its budget, as a smaller number of children joining the school means less funding but no real reduction in costs, as every class still needs a teacher however small the class, and the vast majority of a school's costs are spent on teachers. You would want to be reading the governing body minutes of all the other schools in the area before you tried to jump ship to another one!

Isleepinahedgefund · 11/02/2019 13:59

It's all very well saying that school isn't childcare but come on, let's be realistic!
There aren't many employers who will just let you re arrange your hours because of changes like this. Especially if they employ a lot of parents.

BUT - the reason this is happening is the budgets. There is no money! Write a letter to the education secretary. It's an absolute bloody disgrace, withdrawing investment from our children's future like this. Everyone in schools is doing their level best but if the money isn't there something has to give.

Helix1244 · 11/02/2019 16:46

I dont know as some parents might be happy to be able to get away early for weekend breaks or to do clubs in that time.
I definitely think i would not trust a school that would be this dishonest as they knew they would change it but didnt allow parents the courtesy of making a choice which could be the difference of losing their job as realistically it impacts new yr r starters the most as they have 7-14 years at school depending on age gap of dc. Plus they are often bottom of the after school and holiday club lists
Also the more notice given obviously helps parents at the school and during a proper consultation they should have been considering how many spaces they need in after school clubs.
With older dc though potentially people can wfh and let them play as it's just the afternoon.

Iggly · 11/02/2019 17:08

There aren't many employers who will just let you re arrange your hours because of changes like this

How many parents have to rearrange their hours because of changes in childcare eg because their child is starting school? It’s a ball ache but it happens. As a working mum my heart would sink at this but my anger would be directed towards the Tories.

OhDearGodLookAtThisMess · 11/02/2019 19:00

It's all very well saying that school isn't childcare but come on, let's be realistic!

But it isn't. Any more than your local supermarket or hospital is. Schools exist to educate children, not babysit for parents who have challenging work commitments.

Youmadorwhat · 11/02/2019 19:06

But it isn't. Any more than your local supermarket or hospital is. Schools exist to educate children, not babysit for parents who have challenging work commitments

This!! And as soon as ppl start realizing this the better!!!

Helix1244 · 11/02/2019 21:21

Maybe not but they are like a service industry and parents wont choose one not providing a reasonable service. Schools may well be able to change stuff at the drop of a hat but if it is a ridiculous change for eg then they have to expect that the next year they may be undersubscribed even if it is not relating to the actual education provided. Because there may be nothing between 2 schools when making choices but if you would lose your job or basically a whole day's pay. Also even ignoring the Friday changing the other days has an impact too.

Another question they should have asked existing parents is 'would this have impacted choosing this school?'

Holidayshopping · 11/02/2019 21:46

Have you spoken to any other parents about it today, @fivennotfour?

Walkaround · 11/02/2019 22:01

Helix - as pointed out, however, the service is not a babysitting service, it is an educating service. What you are asking for is that schools prioritise babysitting at the expense of quality of education. The school is damned every which way - babysit your children but be unable to provide enough trained professionals to teach them adequately (resulting in poor SATs results and an inadequate Ofsted, and parents choosing other schools for that reason); ensure that quality of education is prioritised, but parents are detrimentally affected by a change in school hours; or run out of cash and be unable to provide any more education or babysitting services at all.

TildaTurnip · 11/02/2019 22:01

...and accept that they have to pay for childcare to fit around work hours

This always gets said on threads like this and I assume some people are lucky enough that there are options where they live. Where I live there are 5 childminders for a medium sized town. That’s it. With such little notice (which is a significant part of this issue) then you’d have no hope of getting one. Especially as so many would suddenly need them.

Of course school isn’t childcare BUT it does enable people to work. Including other teachers.

OlennasWimple · 11/02/2019 22:05

Yes it's legal to make changes like this, but it's poor communication to just announce it as a fait accompli

Complaining likely won't change the reasons for the new timetable - can some parents group together to hire joint child care to cover the shorter day?

Racecardriver · 11/02/2019 22:07

You do realise that state schools are there to provide children with education when their parents fail to do so rather than to act as a free childcare service right?

OlennasWimple · 11/02/2019 22:09

Jewish schools and schools with a high Muslim population also tend to finish earlier on a Friday to allow for religious observance - it's not just a cost cutting process for all schools

TildaTurnip · 11/02/2019 22:10

You do realise that state schools are there to provide children with education when their parents fail to do so rather than to act as a free childcare service right?

Well given you are not the first by a long way to say it then she probably is but a change of hours massively impacts working families and could feasibly lead to more poverty so dismissing it is ridiculous.

Theworldisfullofgs · 11/02/2019 22:17

The parliamentary petition for increasing school funding has about 200000 less signatories than the one for leaving the EU without a deal.

Given Brexit and the drop in economic growth, I can't see finding for education improving any time soon unless people make a noise. Currently funding goes to health (primarily because of the pressure of old people) and police (rise in gangs and violent crime.)

What gets forgotten is education is the route to social mobility and therefore better health...less inequality..blah blah blah...

Theworldisfullofgs · 11/02/2019 22:19

Angry whilst school isn't childcare it is accepted that children go to school during a large part of parents' working days.

It's the same vicious circle.

OhDearGodLookAtThisMess · 12/02/2019 00:09

Angry whilst school isn't childcare it is accepted that children go to school during a large part of parents' working days.
And parents have to find childcare for when schools are not educating, whether that's from 3.30 each day, or during holidays (which include Inset days). Harsh though it may seem, it's not up to schools to cover that, in the same way as it's not a paediatric unit in a hospital's job to either. Just because schools deal with one facet of children's lives does not mean they should carry the can for anything outside their remit. That's the parents' job.

TildaTurnip · 12/02/2019 19:11

Harsh though it may seem, it's not up to schools to cover that

I think this is far too over simplistic. It’s not sensible to compare to a hospital. Children are supposed to go to school every day (unless HE). This expectation has enabled people to work. To take it away does not mean that there are options. Schools have been so encouraged to provide wraparound care in recent that it is not unreasonable for parents to male an assumption that this will happen.

Walkaround · 13/02/2019 08:32

Except, TildaTurnip, it is unreasonable to expect it when the funding of schools is no longer sufficient to enable a safe environment, a good education AND a longer day.

TildaTurnip · 13/02/2019 15:57

But the answer absolutely should not be-tough we aren’t childcare. It will put some families further into poverty.

I really think that this short notice change is unreasonable.