"DS was able to guess some of the words from the pictures"

[drspouse]

Comment back on DS reading record.
He is massively struggling with GPCs that school say he knows but all the books he comes home with have maybe 1 or 2 of the things he can't do plus loads of much harder words (e.g. adventure, science).
I decided not to bother reading school books with him and have got one of the ORT book packs.
I will tell them I'm doing this but given that we forbid him from guessing what do I say to this comment?
He's in Y2 and on band 5, he can decode but struggles with any alternative spellings or split digraphs.

But op, you say it's got to the point where your ds is running away if you suggest reading books with more than 3 words on the page. At this rate reading is going to become a wholly negative experience for him. It sounds like they are trying to foster a more relaxed relationship with books at school - maybe playing little games where he can guess the story by looking at the pictures. Can't you go with it for a bit, and see if they can break the stressful cycle you all seem to be in?

Oops x posted! I wouldn't have bothered now I know you're not going to engage with me!

I'm not going to say this again, or engage with anyone suggesting using unproven techniques like guessing

Wow. I don't care if you don't engage with me, but if there is any tiny portion of you left that has not whipped yourself up into a ridiculous frenzy about your son and his phonics knowledge, perhaps that tiny portion can take a good look at how inflexible you are being, and how difficult that must be for a 6/7 year old to cope with when being 'taught' be you.

Phonic screening is just that -some CVC words some phonic sounds - some blending

Yes most books are

Jim likes - guess from picture - apples
Jim likes -
So he learns the word like

Joe can jump
Peter can jump

So they learn can jump - getting the guess words right is neither here or there - it’s not part of the phonics test

Look at letters and sound for phonics games and the order in which they are taught - print out the cards etc

I’d seriously have him tested for dyslexia

your ds is running away if you suggest reading books with more than 3 words on the page.
That is if we read complex books to him and it's because he finds it very difficult to sustain attention. You need to read what I wrote.

I am listening - to people who know what they are talking about.

What Are GPCs and CVCs? When did learning/teaching children to read become so confusing?

And what's wrong with guessing words? My dc used to 'read' the most wonderful stories when they were at the guessing words stage!

The comment in reading record is just to note the strategy your ds is using. It doesn't mean it is encouraged or taught. It is a positive comment that an informed adult also knows means that he is not actually decoding the word. Keep going at home with your books and phonic strategies, but don't tell him off for guessing. I find kids who read easily early on sometimes don't develop the skills of using other clues.

It had a smiley face and an exclamation mark. I assumed it was positive.
In any case, not knowing the GPCs in the book means he has no other way to read the words.

porpentia
Grapheme-phoneme correspondences and consonant-vowel-consonant.
The actual skill isn't harder, it's just that as a PP has said, 20% of children were failing, so more research found out that using just phonics was better than mixed methods i.e. including some sight words and guessing.

Whoa OP, you are getting a bit strident with your all caps words. You know that’s shouting at someone, right? You are doing a huge disservice to your son by being so intense about this. It is SO SO SO important for him to love books and reading, which of course he can do without being able to decode them! My kids had favorite board books before they were one! When my older DS was two he was obsessed with Cars and Trucks and Things That go for months. We would cuddle together, point out all the words (most of which were not easily decodable and some of which are old fashioned or unusual), looks at the pictures, talk about the plot, look for Goldbug, and just be together. I totally agree that formal instruction should be phonics focused but at home it should be much more natural and relaxed. You seem to think you’re going to harm your son by exposing him to anything but those godawful boring ORT type books. They are important but there is so much more to it. This isn’t just about your son learning to decode, it’s shaping how he will feel about books and reading. It’s shaping his vocabulary and all of the synapses that activate when he learns weird new words. It’s also shaping his relationship with you.

Right now he’s feeling major pressure from you so of course he runs away. He may just not be ready for full on reading just yet. On top of that your pushing is making the whole thing unpleasant for him. Keep in mind your son wants to please you and be can feel when you are disappointed. I’m not saying don’t teach him at all, but if I were you I would back off 90% for the moment and focus on rebuilding his interest in books.

Absolutely what TheBhagwan said.

Just try to calm down and back off. He is picking up on your stress and anxiety about this and it will make it much more difficult for him to learn.

Op, I did read what you wrote. Whether he's running away at the prospect of reading himself, or at being read to is immaterial. Either means he is already regarding books as a chore. Does he see you or your dh sitting down relaxing with a book?

What are his interests? Could you get him some (picture-heavy) books focussed on them to try to rekindle a love of books? Just let him look at the pictures and then read them to him if he asks you to.

Also I don’t know the statistics but be careful about drawing unfounded conclusions. If phonics helps 15% more kids to read that means it should def be the approach used at school. But it doesn’t say anything about how the process works for the other 80% of kids who do learn to read, and it doesn’t mean those kids can’t benefit from supplementing phonics with other methods. Quite the opposite in fact — if 80% learned to read with a mixed approach or even minimal phonics there are clearly other ways that work. Obviously schools should focus on what works for 95% but at home you should look at what helps for your child individually.

It was suggested upthread that there is evidence that the brain processes reading using strictly phonics. I wonder what the actual data is that underpin that sweeping conclusion. Because I can tell you anecdotally that neither of my DCs nor my brothers nor I learned to read from phonics instruction. With my children we just did tons and tons of reading and they picked it up, seemingly by osmosis. When they got to reception the phonics may have strengthened their abilities but they were both reading fluently before that. (They are both early autumn birthdays so they were very nearly six when they started redemption.) A friend of mine’s son was reading fluently at three and a half! The good news is that I don’t know any child who didn’t learn to read eventually, including in my home country where phonics hasn’t caught on as much as here. I know there is that 5% but I suspect other issues may be at play in those situations. As a PP said, it’s complicated.

Bottom line — relax!

Does your school have access to activelearnprimary bug club? I would say the resources on there are making a much bigger difference to dds reading than the books she comes home with. Her school books are one page of sounding out, then she just repeats it over and over with one different word that is too easy to work out by looking at the picture. That isn't helping her to learn. The stories on the bug club seem to focus on a particular sound, but use many different words for her to practice it on.

I am not sure if you can, but I would try and get it even if your school hasn't signed up. It really is a fantastic resource.

He loves us reading to him, just not if it requires effort.
He likes reading short books at his level (he'd read a lower book band book on his own, easily).
He finds listening to long pages of text hard due to his attention problems.
If he has 5 different GPCs that he doesn't know, on one page, like in his school books, that's also hard for him so he won't do it.
I'm just not sure how nobody gets the concept that doing something that's way too hard is stressful?

So if a child doesn't seem to be succeeding with phonics by Year 2, it would seem sensible to try other strategies?

In what way is he not succeeding with phonics? If he can blend CVC words and passed the phonics check this isn’t a ‘child that doesn’t get phonics’. He might be a child that needs systematic teaching and a bit more practice than the rest but he isn’t failing at phonics.

Unfortunately drspouse if the school really won’t do it and are encouraging other strategies, then you aren’t going to get them to change their minds. You are going to have to do it yourself.

Is he better with the decodable than the books school are sending home? You might find that if he’s having to put a bit less effort in, then he’ll be more willing to read.

Yep he's fine with the really systematic ORT ones. We just spotted all the ee and ea and -y words in one book and his little mind seemed to be BLOWN that they sound the same. So now we've spotted them we'll read the rest of the book. But, they are expensive, and I only have a few therefore.

(5 minute job with bribe of TV)

Thinking through helping my dc learn to read guessing can help them understand a story. For example dc makes a guess for a word that looks similar but makes no sense in the story you can talk about the story and the meaning of the word they have said. You can highlight how similar the word looks and how many letters they have correctly identified.
If they guess a word that makes sense in story that isn't written you can praise their comprehension and say those words would also work, maybe say how they are spelled while helping dc work through the word that is there.
If he struggles with attention keep lessons with him short and sweet and maybe have a reward system for sitting down to do it, a button jar maybe? Not the successful outcome rewarded but the act of sitting down.
Or ditch books altogether and read cereal packets, road signs, microwave cooking instructions anything else he comes across.

Have you looked at book people for more books?

You can also get free ort tree books online just google oxford owl club

I'll have a look greenhat, annoyingly phonics books always seem really overpriced.

How old is he? Year 2 sounds like it might be a bit young for Toe-by-toe.

Does he like to listen to audio books?

We subscribed to Reading Chest for a while when ds1 and ds2 were getting unsuitable books. You can pick the schemes and levels that suit your child. Ds1 had language difficulties so found phonics exceptionally difficult and struggled with the early phonic books as they lacked flow and were really slow going. We did a lot of shared reading for the enjoyment of reading and to develop confidence and then toe by toe for structured phonic work. Keeping the two separate helped.