3+ 4+ 5+ 7+ support thread 2018

[mumteacher]

In previous years I have started these threads to help and support all those involved in the independent school admissions process.

I wasn't going to start one this year as I know I would not be able to check back on it as regularly as I would like, which then defeats the purpose of the thread.

However, after numerous positive PM's about the threads I think it would be a shame not to start one where at least the hand holding can continue.

There are many many people who have been through the process and 'live to tell the tale' . There are also other tutors I know who read this thread and it would be great if you all could help and support and share your ideas👏🏼

(Roll on 2018!) 😉

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2783435-3-4-5-7-support-thread-2017

I have a question for anyone in this chat which no one seems to be asking (including in previous chats I have scoured). I hope someone can help.

Many parent have raised valid points against assessments at 4+ and 7+ main points being there is no way one can tell the future outcome of a child. Many opposing views have been equally valid in argument, even to the point of they aren’t looking for brilliant but those that are engaging.

My question is - how is it that schools who are super selective like NLCS claim to have methods which are legit to identify clever girls have significant basis (and parents justify it, siting the use of psychologists etc to create these methods) when the School then later 1) ask kids to leave who can’t keep up 2) parents are hiring tutors to keep up and it’s common for most parents to do so and 3) have the kids compete to keep their spot by sitting 11+ exams along with outsiders to be traded in for the one with the better outcome? Isn’t this odd to anyone? Shouldn’t all this be eliminated through earlier assessment? Why have the girls in school compete with a potential kid who may be good passing exams and take a chance trading? Why not automatically move up through from junior or senior school?

Don’t get me wrong. I respect the environment which is created, to strive to achieve. But it’s the disconnect I would like someone to shed some light on.

The zero diversity is what I'm worried about at SH. However unsure about ML results for girls.

@shodo DD has a spot at ML too and I'd be very happy to send her as I do trust their academic standards. The workload before the 11+ is quite immense and they do prep their kids well. The boys are very strong at ML and always have been. I had slight concerns at our tour when we walked in top set science and it was all boys with 3 girls. I did challenge it and was told well those were who was top for that year group. It's a bit cliche wrt to boys and girls divide re STEM subjects. But, that was really only ONE class that I saw and if DD does go, it's something I plan to keep an eye myself.

And to be honest, I'm much more frustrated about the lack of a late stay club at ML.

@fitnessfanatic108 thank you very much, very useful insight.

@OnceUponATime101 I don't think you're wrong at all. Basically they had to have some way to sort through the squillions of kids applying for precious few places. But those methods certainly aren't foolproof. They also value, more than anything, their position in the league table. So kids get tapped on the shoulder if they don't look to make the grade at any point. It makes for a continued high pressure environment for the parents and kids. It doesn't test their teaching because the band of ability is so narrow. Really what they've achieved is a process by which they take and keep only the the highest fliers. It would be far more impressive to see a school that takes a broader intake and progresses them all. But that doesn't make for league table headlines.

@OnceUponATime101 Not sure my comments will be the most useful, but thought I’d try.

I appreciate what you’re saying and there’s a lot there that I probably agree with. But as parents you go in with your eyes open knowing the pro’s and con’s of the independent school system. Yes sure some struggle, others get tutored and other humps and bumps along the way but as a parent when entering these schools you commit yourself and your resources (particularly time) to ensure that your child does well. A lot of these schools are looking for committed parents too. I know of a girl at NLCS that struggled with reading, the parents got called in. The school partnered with the parents to help her, the childs mum carries a LV hand bag with at least 3 books wherever she goes. The girl is doing great now.

From my perspective, if my DD is lucky enough to get into one of these schools I have a belief she will cope. I actually have concerns with her going to a prep school and getting bored / disruptive because she can read and write. But hey we all think our kids are amazing, so I could be wrong but we can only try!

@OnceUponATime101 Yes, you're right about superselectives' system. It's an imperfect system with no transparency. What is left out is a lot of children with any sort of slight "imperfections" to motor skills or speech or personality quirks which is really silly. CLSG wants to build a prep in the underground car park. Will parents pay for that? Of course and it will no doubt be oversubscribed. Prep schools are big business for these schools. Parents don't buy in for wonders of the prep, they buy into the senior school's position in the league tables.

The other harsh truth is, often times (not always of course), the calibre of candidates coming in at 11+ and 13+ are higher than those that come in from their own preps. They carry those league table results.

Habs no longer preps for senior school. If you don't get culled, you're straight into the senior. Do I prefer that? Only if I'm sure my child will want to stay. 4-18 is long. Some girls want a chance to reinvent themselves. A little help with prep for my child to move to another school is appreciated as the 11+ process is gruelling going it alone.

The "disconnect" is there but, I'll take the 4+ over any of the other entries. I found it quite chilled...DD thought they were play dates at big school. 11+ is a threadmill of hardwork but also an older child with lots of emotions and insecurities.

17 left NLCS last year so I don't assume ours will go all the way. I also don't assume all the girls are heads above all the other girls not in these super selectives or that the prep is SOOO much better than any other school. It's just easier access to the senior school. If we get tapped to leave, DD will be young enough and at least we've had a go, plenty of other fantastic options out there.

I am wondering if you have any thoughts about leaving a shy child in a small school to get the confidence and focus academically for 7 + later or put in a medium sized school for 11+

@OnceUponATime101, I can see you point and anxiety at the early selection process. It is of course not perfect, but I believe the schools are trying to make it as "fair" as possible in the process. Also the fact that many schools have multiple entry points, and one child can sit multiple schools exams broadens the chances. A bright child will be going somewhere, sooner or later. It's not a life-death situation at 4+ or 7+.
So I think parents taking the right view to the system is also important, thought difficult. I know many boys who didn't get any place in 7+ did brilliantly in 8+. children grow, and they will shine eventually.

Wow! Was that 17 in one year group, or across all years?

@OnceUponATime101 I can only guess based on what she tells me, but we did maybe 15 assessments (to include 2nd rounds), mostly top tier schools with a couple of back ups like Mill Hill, and most of the time it was pretty usual staff that probably any child of this age can do if she's taught to - colouring, drawing, basic counting and letters/numbers recognition, puzzles, pattern recognition, ability to follow instructions, writing their names, telling a story, these are all normal milestones really, some DC are just more mature by this age than others, that's all. More selective schools probe for reading, but everything was done in engaging play settings, with toys etc.

Whereas after NLCS assessment she told me they played with some brown and white small cubes (dice?) with no letters or numbers or pictures on them and they were asked to put them on a sheet of paper (board game?) following the teacher's rules e.g. the teacher puts two on one side of the paper and she needs to put two on the other side, but she also need to pick them out according to some criteria and place them on a particular spot. She tried to explain the rules but I could not make it out. It's probably the same old pattern recognition and following instructions, or maybe just a board game, but done in a different format, with no toys and rather abstract and maybe boring for some.

They also did something with a story, but it wasn't just usual reading and asking questions. A whiteboard and some boxes were used for that task and the teacher moved boxes around but it was somehow related to the story. So, again, it's comprehension basically, but in a different format.

I must add it's only my speculation and I may be wrong and she couldn't really explain it to me clearly enough, but NLCS was our last assessment and she did tell me she never had similar tasks in any other school.

@Summersunandflowers Across

The Y6 girl who did the tour with us at NLCS said that from her Reception class 5 girls have already left. So roughly 25% cannot cope at all.

DS was accepted to King's 7+!! Such a relief. Now going to call schools for our DD and hopefully this will bump her up the waitlist a little bit.

Have to say if our DS would have had to take a 4+ he would have failed miserably. Could barely talk then. Shame the girls path doesn't account for late bloomers.

Just wondering why schools have these multiple entry points? Is it so parents can do state school for a bit then move later on? Or to recognise later developers?

Congratulations gtijerina! It must have been so difficult going through 4+ and 7+ at the same time!

Thank you all for your responses. I will say this after reading so many blogs. And I apologise if I am wrong.

Kids being asked to leave high pressured schools or choosing to leave because they can’t cope proves one thing. Having a high(ish) IQ does not translate into success. Hard work and commitment does. And I agree, their process is flawed because it seems they are looking for IQ rather than interest. How many children become great successes in life because they attended these schools? Not everyone with a high IQ in life cares for what we deem to be success. Look around your office at work etc...it all seems to even out based on the character of the individual than the school they’ve attended (as u see both successes and failures across all schools). What I do like about these high pressured schools is that they offer access to great resources and the environment of drive to succeed. So I won’t be entirely hard on them. It’s the best environment for the committed hard worker and oppose to the high IQ kid. So to the parents who got in, congrats and use the advantages of these schools the best you can. And for the parent who did not get in, your child is still destined for success and is on the right path. I feel the nervousness of the parents through these post and your desire for the best for your kids certainly can’t be questioned. And therein lies their success.

Correction - I meant AS opposed to the high IQ kid. Not AND.

Extremely well said @OnceUponATime101. I agree with you a 100%.

You have summed it up well OnceUponATime101.

Ok. Breathe, Mumsnetters. DCs leave schools for many reasons that have nothing to do with being 'managed out'. DD1 entered NLCS at 4+ and is through and out the other side and loving uni. Her year of 24 girls in the First School lost 5 girls (to a move, a divorce, too long a journey, a co-ed school her brother joined and to another girls' school after her sibling didn't get a place). Two spots were filled. So, 21 went up to the Lower School. Adding 7+ class. After that, we had 2 leave for boarding school (parents both decided it was cheaper than a full time nanny)and one moved. One was replaced . That makes 46. At 11+, only one girl was flagged as academically weak but the policy is that a girl may continue if she passes the 11+. She did and she did. Going up to the Senior School, one left to go to a less academic school and leave room for her extra-curricular performing (actor) and one went to HB (it's free). So, keeping up?, that's 10 girls who left from a group that did not have two forms in the First School. Does any of that sound like a cull? Nope. This was before the economic crash so, I suspect, some girls in subsequent years will have had financial problems. Before that scares you, When it has happened in cases that I know of because they are friends of mine, The school has been known to bend their bursary rules.
I have known of a scant handful in other years where it was clear that the Senior School just wasn't going to be right for the girls and the process was handled with enormous sensitivity. The parents are never surprised and usually agree that it's the right thing to do. No-one wants to see their DD miserable at school.

4plus- Your DD has excellent recall! Top schools usually get their admissions right because they use very carefully designed tests to score each applicant. It certainly isn't about only taking the chatty ones or the compliant ones.They managed to flag DD2 as dyslexic two years before she could be tested by an ed psych and got her Dx spot on.

horsemadmom I tend to believe that some schools use ed psy tests - not classical methods probably, adapted for the purpose but still very similar. At least it's technically possible - my godmother is a clinical psychologist working in education (in another country) and such tests do exist for this age group.
What I don't buy into is that the tests at 4+ can predict success, even in the next couple of years, let alone in the long run. That's the main problem, I think. My DS is gifted with IQ in top 2% of the population and it was quite obvious by 3, not even 4 years of age. But there would have been absolutely no chance of him coping in an environment like NLCS. There are lots of other factors that play their roles, besides being bright. It seems to me that many parents underestimate this.

@Ma518 re snails pace, topics are taught and taught and taught , same thing again and again, then daily hwk of said basic work. Can be dull for girls that can handle more. The extension work is still fairly basic and def not on par with the top schools. Perhaps with the departure of serinturk they may up their game in the junior school.

Re zero diversity, what can I say ? My daughter visited the school and asked me “mummy why is everyone brown?”

@rumpleteezer I heard the registrar at Putney high was off sick so none of the mail went out??!!