Advantages of state over private?

[CakeLoving]

Our girl starts reception next year. Her grandparents have offered to help with the cost of private school, and there are a couple of pretty good prep/4-16 private schools close by.

But part of me thinks (having seen step siblings go through the state school system- I went private) that there are distinct advantages to going to the local community school.

I'm interested in what others feel these are. We are in London and some of the threads on here make me feel like an awful mother for even considering state...which seems completely skewed!

Lol. The estate ghetto is where all the private kids buy their drugs

Well, the degree of the phenomenon may vary but the underlying principle is the same. Just head over to the "13+ prep" thread. "Lovely rural school etc but very mixed ability defo we are off to private"

So, to me that suggests a state education gives you other skills in terms of resilience and the ability to study independently

Personally I think a more likely hypothesis is that a private secondary school result in a higher average grade for an equivalent pupil, that might be due to the school, but it might equally be due the parents caring more about grades.

As you note though, A-level grades are unimportant beyond the minimum required to achieve your next thing, had I been in an environment where A-level grades were important I would've been even more heavily pressured into doing another A-Level, and pushed into working harder for them.

Just looked at dds sate comp destinations

Oxford 2
Cambridge 3
Imperial 2
Exeter, Manchester, Durham, Birmingham, Bath, Loughborough etcetcetc

Also central St Martins for art
SOas

Anyway my point is that these are kids who went to local primary then state comprehensive. So hopefully anyone reading this his thread and feeling that their dcs might not do well in state needn't necessarily worry

LondonMum8
"vehemently resent them due to their inability to afford, socialist beliefs etc.
We can discuss how enriching exposure to estate ghetto culture in a free for all state school can be, but the "benefit" is ultimately difficult to quantify"

Why not just come out and say that you want your children amongst the 'higher echelons' of private schools, something I recently heard from another parent? In fact I get it, many community London schools are very diverse and many MC parents move heaven and earth to avoid them.

Hermagsjesty I would just be a little careful with the HEFCE research that you linked to. I think it is the one where HEFCE had added the columns up wrongly and later had to explain that the figure that they had given for independent schools was actually the one for state and vice versa here

OP - I think the only concrete thing that you get when you can afford to pay is choice. That means you have a better chance of finding the best school for your child whether that turns out to be the private or the state. There is too much variation to give a definitive answer of advantages of one sector over the other.

So, to me that suggests a state education gives you other skills in terms of resilience and the ability to study independently

Unlikely. State schools, on average, don't prepare students as well for Oxbridge. So being a state school student who has got to that level is probably a "marker" for having a particular type of personality (i.e. you are more likely to be more of a self-starter, someone who goes out of their way to find things out and learn even when you aren't surrounded by people easing your way through).

I went to Cambridge after a comprehensive school in a northern city. I did have some good teachers, but my impression is that what the interviewers were looking for was someone who was passionate and knowledgable about their subject in a way that went well outside the standard curriculum or the minimum of what you needed to get an A in exams. Private prep schools and public schools no doubt make this easier and probably attract somewhat different and brighter demographics in the first place. However, a good comprehensive school plus a good home environment can get you a long way too. My parents also had me tutored at various points which I think helped.

My "hunch" (talking to my fellow Cambridge people who came from all sorts of backgrounds) was that the colleges were inclined to "give the nod" to candidates from state schools and northern backgrounds if they were presented with a choice between equally well qualified candidates from different backgrounds. Perhaps in recognition of the above. It could be that my impression was not correct, of course.

OP - I think the only concrete thing that you get when you can afford to pay is choice. That means you have a better chance of finding the best school for your child whether that turns out to be the private or the state. There is too much variation to give a definitive answer of advantages of one sector over the other.

This

Thanks Gini - I wasn’t aware of that Telegraph article. The research I linked to is also by the HEFCE but looking at a different cohort from what I can see - the dates and percentages are different to those referred to in the Telegraph article. The article is really interesting on the prejudices and preconceptions we all bring to this debate though.

It's all well & good but for the vast majority of parents who have no hope of ever being able to afford private fees, what can we do at home to ensure our dc will be able to mix with the "upper echelons" socailly & acedemically & grow up to feel on a par with them & not intimidated!

Oh no, ignore me - I think it is actually is the same research. But interpreted in a different way. It was retweeted by the Phil Gatty of the Times Higher Education recently - I guess because of current debates re Oxbridge entrants. Fascinating how the same stats lead to v different conclusions.

Thanks Hermag but I don't think it was just an interpretation difference (though there is that too). It was an error in the figures and HEFCE acknowledge that The headline figures for independent and state schools were transposed so when the research was initially reported there were lots of headlines saying that state school students achieved a higher percentage of 'good' degree results but actually it is the other way round. None of the original press reports seem to have been changed so people keep retweeting them without realising the mistake.

So once corrected, the research showed that independent school students got a higher percentage of 'good' degree results. It still showed that for those students who obtained less that AAA at A-level, state school students did slightly better than independent students with the same grades. The rates were the same for AAA students. So for example 86% of AAB students from independent schools got a 'good' degree whereas 90% of state school students with those grades did. I imagine that shows that an individual student has a better chance of getting better A-levels at an independent schools but that the advantage is reduced at University.

There is more analysis and detail here

what can we do at home to ensure our dc will be able to mix with the "upper echelons" socailly

Nothing. Don't bother. The 'upper echelons' are usually utterly cliquey and would have no desire to mix with anyone not from the 'upper echelons'. They are very insular in that way.

Scabbersley, enraged socialism off please. Of course there is a lot she can do, it just takes extra work if the school fails to stretch a DC to their potential.

It's not as simple as state vs private. It's about looking at the schools which are available to you and seeing where will suit your children best.
My worry would be the fact that someone else is paying. Will they also be covering all the 'extras'. Expensive uniform, trips etc? I can imagine it is more difficult to say no when the rest of the class can afford to go where as in a state school only a handful of each class end up going on expensive residential trips at secondary level, primary ones was much more affordable.
Could the money be used to enhance their lives in other ways or does it have to be school?

You have a lot to learn Londonmum

How would the grandparents feel about putting that money into a fund for secondary education?

Many of the essential skills learnable at primary level are well provided for in a state school: socialisation, craft etc. And there is less pressure on them to conform and achieve which at that age is a distinct advantage. We chose state for primary. It wasn't a brilliant school. But it was happy, and it had outstanding facilities (as good as any private.)
Secondary is a different matter. Imo it's far more important to find the exact fit of school for the child to thrive as they face exams and growing up and career decisions. For this we went private and I'm glad we didn't waste money on primary prep schools that we've really benefited from in secondary.

You are right about that, Scabbersley - the learning never stops. I don't think I have a lot more to learn about socialism though!

Well clearly you do, as you have decided I am one

Will all this talk about upper echelons it's possible you don't realise you are one! You see in socialism everyone is equal (but in practice some are "more equal").

As other posters said what are the schools like near you. My DC1 will be attending the state primary school 150m from our house. However its outstanding & in the top 50 in London. If I could get to church more often I would apply for the catholic state in the top 5. I like it as it has a villiage feel, very close & more diverse. Although not very diverse as catchment is tiny & house prices are £££ (London). Ideally child will be genius and go to grammar school later but if he's not we will consider private. There are shit private & state options.

Yeah, that's the trap we fell into: "highly ranked and outstanding" state school with a marked premium on house prices around it. The premium is a waste of money that would have been better spent on fees.

Londonmum I do think it's weird that people pay £££ for house when they could use the fees for private. Luckily for me I was born & raised here.

Londonmum I do think it's weird that people pay £££ for house when they could use the fees for private. Luckily for me I was born & raised here.

Because perhaps they'd like to live in a nice area as well as educate their children somewhere decent?