Advantages of state over private?

[CakeLoving]

Our girl starts reception next year. Her grandparents have offered to help with the cost of private school, and there are a couple of pretty good prep/4-16 private schools close by.

But part of me thinks (having seen step siblings go through the state school system- I went private) that there are distinct advantages to going to the local community school.

I'm interested in what others feel these are. We are in London and some of the threads on here make me feel like an awful mother for even considering state...which seems completely skewed!

I didn't question the academic results. In my experience, and at the end of the day that's all we can talk about,there has been no difference in quality of teachers. In fact the state has been slightly better as the teachers are generally younger and more energetic.

Of course a selective school is going to get better results, state or private!

I am merely saying that as far as teachers and badly behaved children, I've seen much worse at private than state.

Q

I didn't question the academic results. In my experience, and at the end of the day that's all we can talk about,there has been no difference in quality of teachers. In fact the state has been slightly better as the teachers are generally younger and more energetic.

Of course a selective school is going to get better results, state or private!

I am merely saying that as far as teachers and badly behaved children, I've seen much worse at private than state.

Q

Well, it's obviously all anecdotal evidence, but in our case the indy trumps state in all aspects (and it was one of those special primaries which are supposed to be so good they help train teachers from other schools, forgot the technical term). I think the state school have been doing the best they can but there is only so much you can achieve with the intake you get from the council I guess (a lot of effort is expended on just enforcing discipline). In fact I was initially quite sceptical and not at all convinced that the indy will prove to be a significant improvement, I guess it was the case of not actually knowing any better first hand...

Yes, probably neither of us should generalise. Good schools are good schools!

LondonMum8 If instead of writing:

Advantages of a selective private vs an outstanding state
you wrote
Advantages of our selective private vs our impressions of the outstanding state

Then it would've been a lot clearer that you were just giving an anecdote, rather than actually suggesting the differences were because of private vs state, when they are almost all about the difference between your individual schools.

I'm quite interested by MrsT75's Visit the local state schools in your area and private schools, you’ll know what’s right for you

Since I don't get how anyone can get anything but a very superficial image of a school in a visit, and do you really want the superficial to decide where your child 160+ days a year for years?

These are not impressions - one can get some impressions by reading MN or indeed visiting a school - it's direct experience, which I'm sure is something the OP is ultimately interested in reading about (I know I was when we were pondering the decision to move), as opposed to rants of people enraged by an uncomfortable view. Yes, it would be great if state primary schools were almost as good as the best private schools, they aren't and - by construction - they can't be.

I teach in a state primary and DS goes to a prep.

The literacy and numeracy teaching is better in the state school I teach in. That is because the whole organisation has it's focus trained on just those two things. Every staff meeting, every INSET, every staff member's appraisal is all about how to get better results in those two subjects, how to teach them better, where to fit more time in for them, how to make the assessment more rigorous, pouring over data tracking the progress in just those subjects.

I know for a fact DS's prep don't treat just those two subjects as the be all and end all in the same way they work out of workbooks...

However, every single other thing is better at the prep. Better breadth of other curriculum subjects, better facilities for other subjects, better range of better qualified teachers for other subjects, better sport, better drama, better food, more playtime, more focus on 'soft skills' like public speaking and working in a team.

Just two school there obviously, but I wouldn't be surprised if that pattern didn't generalise a bit.

Yes, it would be great if state primary schools were almost as good as the best private schools, they aren't and - by construction - they can't be.

Perhaps not. But the best primary state schools can be just as good and produce the same outcomes as a lot of private schools do.

Who care though? Sport? Out of school. Public speaking? Easily taught if kid is interested. Facilities? Swimming pools? Archery targets? Out of school.

I disagree that there is a better range of better teachers.

More playtime? Longer days. Better food? Really? That's even an issue

Who care though? Sport? Out of school. Public speaking? Easily taught if kid is interested. Facilities? Swimming pools? Archery targets? Out of school.

I disagree that there is a better range of better teachers.

More playtime? Longer days. Better food? Really? That's even an issue

I personally prefer the balance. I like not having to lay on all that stuff out of school. Do you really want to be out at a club EVERY night? DS does do something out of school, but it's just the one thing he wants to do to a high level. The other stuff he can cheerfully do in school time.

If you don't want that extra stuff that's fine isn't it? Nobody is being forced to pay for a prep.

There is a better range of better teachers for subjects other than literacy and numeracy. My state school doesn't have specialist teachers for science, music, drama, classics/Latin, computing, separate sports specialist for the different major sports etc. Other than MFL, we all just do the best we can with the time we have left after really driving the maths and English.

Anyway, as I say, if you don't value any of that, it's a non issue.

The literacy and numeracy teaching is better in the state school I teach in.

That's surprising. Is that prep selective? Comparing say Y3 maths curriculum at the super outstanding state primary with the selectgive private school is just unfair. English looks a bit closer but by no means on par. Most importantly, the private school really stretches children individually, whereas the state school didn't really do much (as indicated in their 'outstanding' Ofsted report).

Private schools cost ££££ so can spend much more per pupil.

I said the teaching was better, not the outcomes.

DS's prep is not selective but DS (who is the only child I can comment on) has attainment that compares favourably with the pupils at my school- and he is not one of the high achievers in his year group so I assume others must be attaining more. That is not because he has been taught more effectively though.

Very many of the pupils in my school have much lower starting points and much less external encouragement as it's in a very deprived catchment. The classes are much bigger which takes a better teacher to manage. There is a much broader range of ability which takes more skilled teaching to meet everybody's needs and keep everybody engaged. More different types of SEN so more theoretical knowledge needed. It's basically a much harder, more demanding job than pointing 12 naice children, primed for learning, at the right page in their work book.

I am just comparing two schools I know though, which maybe isn't fair. It's not actually a state v private thing.

DH has worked in a well known super selective Independent where the teaching was really slack and lazy, yet the outcomes amazing. He has also worked in a well known, not very selective at all, public school where the teaching has to be an unbelievably high quality to give the boys half a chance, and the outcomes are still very average.

It's basically a much harder, more demanding job
Lowdoorinthewal1, isn't it just that the two systems have different types of demands: in state you need infinite patience, and that amazing ability to mesmerise and manage a class of 30, half with behavioural issues. In private, there is more of a need to be smart and creative to keep stimulating and stretching your pupils. An effective state teacher wouldn't necessarily do well in private and vice versa.

You have really fallen into a trap of thinking all prep schools are full of brainy kids, that is just a London thing where most of the independent schools are selective and very competitive to get into. Elsewhere you just sign on the dotted line to go to your local prep.

DS is much more likely to be thinking about where he's left his rugby socks than wondering why he is being read Paddington instead of Beyond Good and Evil.

It is, of course, school dependent.

However, thinking of the schools I know:

• Teachers using up-to-date methods and pedagogy (for example, phonics to teach reading). This is a balance with the disadvantage of constantly changing goalposts in state primary, which causes stressed out teachers, but there are some developments in teaching that seem to have completely passed local private schools by.

• Differentiation of work for anyone lying outside 'the norm' for that school. Unified, whole class, identical work is the norm for the private primary school teachers I know.

• Provision for SEN, unless it is a specialism of the school.

• In some schools, less formal learning in the Early Years. While play-based reception is almost universal in state schools, some private schools have very rigid seating / learning from very early on- great for some children, not for others.

• Less formal testing. Yes, SATs rears their ugly head at the end of key stages in stage schools, but termly formal tests in all subjects, with very clear ranking within the class, is the norm in pretty much every private primary I have been in.

• Less homework. Most state primaries have reading + a bit of times table work + spellings. Most private primaries round me tend to set a LOT of nightly homework, and the evidence for its benefit is very unclear.

• 'All in one' package. This is fine, because for most children having an 'OK' provision of sport, dance, music etc in school is a convenience. however, that does mean that those children don't access, or can access only with difficulty, the exceptional quality provision in the community.

• Attitude. This one is probably the most controversial, because for some it will be an advantage of a private primary schooling that it confers a 'certain kind of confidence'. IME, locally and in my immediate family, there can be a very fine line between a pleasant and outgoing confidence, and a degree of entitled brattishness that sees others as 'beneath them'.

All the above, however, are school dependent. I know of excellent private schools that specialise in particular SEN to which none of the above applies.

Londonmum,

I really don't think it is, in most schools, a difference between 'managing behavioural issues' in state and 'stretching the most able' in private. Of course in the most selective private vs the most deprived state - ie the extremes of both sectors - that will be the case. However, in most areas, stretching and engaging the brightest will present one of teaching's challenges in both sectors - though the state sector will also have the simultaneous challenge of reducing the barriers to learning of those with SEN.

I compare notes with a private school teacher on a regular basis. Both schools are non-selective by ability (though as the private school is selective by ability to pay, it has almost no SEN pupils and very few social issues).

I spend much more time weekly on issues that relate to pupils - both learning / behavioural issues, and issues related to difficulties in their out of school life. She spends much more time weekly on issues raised by parents, almost all linked to the basic financial transaction of 'I am buying this education, are you giving me full value for my money?' They are different kinds of pressure.

Locally, there is a regular flow of teachers from state to private, but almost none of the state schools will shortlist applicants from private school teachers, as the experience of the heads has been that teachers who have only, or mainly, taught in private schools tend to lack some of the skills critical for working in mainstream state primaries - differentiation, managing SEN, planning according to a rapidly changing curriculum, awareness of current best practice pedagogy and - though this is only ever mentioned as an afterthought - maintaining good classroom discipline in mixed ability classrooms.

Our state primary actually has better results than the nearest private primary (which continues to secondary). It's totally non selective (other than socially obviously) The advantages I see are a smarter uniform (!), a swimming pool on site/ better sports facilities and play equipment, better drama and art/DT provision. And apparently brilliant school lunches.

At our primary there are multiple after school clubs every day for each age range, very few of which you have to pay for, probably not to the same standard but they're available and it just means most days I collect DD3 from school 16.20 because she's always doing something.

While it may not be the case in all areas, in ours I don't see the advantage of private over state.

Yeah, sure - non-selective private schools are a separate category really, not sure I would ever bother sending my DC to one. I was providing an exanple of how a highly ranked selective private primary compares to an outstanding state primary in London. it's important to understand there is no contest, whereas reading various posts on MN a while back I was lead to believe it's not so clear cut. It really is, the cost is the only factor.

Bog standard state Primary here. We have teaching specialists for science, sport (professionals from local clubs), music and French. That’s not unusual around here. We also have our own swimming pool.

I also agree with a PP wrt private staff not cutting it in state.

I remember going into dds private prep during a textiles class and being really shocked at the noise and chaos. Two of the most brash confident girls completely dominating, running around, grabbing stuff, shouting. Teacher just sat there smiling indulgently. No wonder dd used to get frequent migraines (which stopped completely once at state)

None of the schools I am taking about are selective however, presumably they are different.

Yeah, sure - non-selective private schools are a separate category really, not sure I would ever bother sending my DC to one

Luckily, we are not competing for the same school places then London. I wouldn't send any child of mine to the super selective London day schools. I think they are dreadful places, especially for girls. They actually fill me with horror.

That doesn't mean you are wrong though- for your DC.

It really is just about what different people want for their children isn't it? Just because one type of school suits my DS (and I am SO happy with everything his laid back prep offers, it's perfect for him) doesn't mean everybody else's choice is wrong.

In choosing (for those that are lucky enough to be able to choose) a school everybody will have their own priorities and compromises. The key is to find the school that fulfils the most of the former and has the least of the latter.

As many people have said, OP must visit the schools and choose the best fit for her DC without considering the sector.