What can be done WWYD dc left out of friendship grp in class for 4th year running?

[MintJulip]

Usually, they split classes, but for last three years they are not going too, in spite of for other years telling us how crucial this is. They shook up classes a few years ago and the way the cookie crumbled left DD to be the only one out of a group of four - in the other class.

Some said the would look at this going into year 4 but she was left out again as they didnt change class - we really hoped this year they would move class so she had a chance of being with at least ONE of the other three and yet again they have left class the same.

what can I expect? WWYD. I would say - just move her into the other class! Easy Peasy but as usual - things are never so simple are they.

This happens to another child - classes split - all 5 of his group in one class - him on his own - he has suffered anxiety for years now -

For example the kids might go to the park - they just turn up and he refuses to go as he's 'not invited' not true but that's how he sees it

He thinks his 'friends don't want him' again not true but it's how he feels

It has long term effects on some children

Push OP be annoying - go in write emails appeal to their promises made to a child last year

Tell them DD feels DD refuses DD
Is upset when

Be that parent because if you don't have her back then no one does

Thank you Green, I am leaving letter with the school, not sure to who or why, but just have it somewhere. I sort of thought I was being that parent back in year 4 but as the Head has no recollection at all of our conversation and they wont - entertain for a moment their policy has a damaging effect its hard.

metal its not like that, when the other girl has a play date, its MY dd they invite, or bdays etc, however the other girl has a very very active schedule outside school and the dm is also very busy. So its much harder to wait and ask - and wait...

Also metal re next couple of years is what we have been hoping for this past couple of years.

we are at the end of the line now - after next year thats it.

Good luck!

Don't give in!

State pastries care and well being

Use their words in school literature

Send one to the governors

Don't give up

I totally understand what you're saying. Sympathy to your daughter. It doesn't matter if these girls will be lifelong friends. It does matter that your daughter has been unhappy at school, for three years now. Would it kill the school to move this one child? There's a history, she's tried her best, she still understandably feels left out - this is not good pastoral care.

Please be the squeaky wheel, and good luck to you!

I can understand what you are saying. But schools will not change classes just for a child to be with a friend. She will just have to make do. Situations change and it's part of life. For example perhaps her best friend could move country? Like with my dd. Her best friend from age 2 moved when they were 5. They were always playing together every day and so close. But my dd had to make do after her friend moved. She missed her a lot at first. My dd also changed schools. She made friends, but no one as close. She is still friends w her old best friend, as she has visited us this summer and we will visit her next month. But my dd managed at age 5 to form other friendships and to be happy. She may not have a new best friend yet, but she has friends. I helped her by encouraging play dates. I was proactive in setting them up. Also, she had friendships at her old school, but I focused on new school friendships as I didn't want to have her pine for old school. This worked as she has settled well in new school. On top of all this she learned new language as her school is French/English and we don't speak french at home. Kids are resilient. Perhaps your focus on the other girls in the other class had encouraged your dd to keep focusing on this as well. And as other poster pointed out, maybe there is a reason thehead is not telling you about. Maybe teachers saw your dd was forming a dependent and unhealthy relationship with the girls and thought separating would be best. Or perhaps one of the girls parents requested them separate as it was distracting their dd from learning in class being with her best friend. We even considered it might be better to separate my dd from her best friend bc they were too close. So in a way better she moved country. It's not healthy to be so focused on one friendship.

Year 5 and 6 are very funny years for girls. With DD it appeared on face of it to be the opposite issue at the start of year 5 classes mixed up all friendship groups separated. School stood firm there would be no changes.
With hindsight school were able to see through experience where the problems were likely to be, where the cliques were going to form and were trying very hard to to limit the time the cliques spent together.
The cliques did happen, but through the classes being organised the way they were I think it was mitigated as much as possible.
Also with hindsight the friendships that had appeared firm from reception through to end of year 4 were totally turned on their heads in years 5 and 6 when girls developed interests in pop groups, fashion, make up and a whole variety of other things. Plus years 5 and 6 there is much less opportunity to socialise in class.
I have very much adopted the attitude of throughout adult life you won't always even like the people you have to work with so school is like that too. In the classroom you are there to work socialising and friendships occur in the playground and after school.

Part of the curriculum is social skills - forming relationships etc

What's key here is the school made a promise that the DD has clung too - which has now been revoked

They should have promised another mix - but they did

My son was separated from every single friend after YR. He is quite severely autistic and had worked so incredibly hard that year to make friends in his class. He had three particular friends and another 5 good-ish friends - and they were ALL put into the other class. We asked repeatedly for a class swap but we got absolutely nowhere. I genuinely believe that this contributed to making him even more autistic - he really went into his shell and just stopped trying to make any friends at all. After Year 2 we moved him and he now attends a special school, where he's blissfully happy.

Years later the fabulous 1:1 TA that he'd had at that school told me that she too had been in to see the Head and had pleaded for a class swap on our behalf, and the Head had actually admitted to her that separating my boy from all of his friends had been a bad move, but that she always supported her staff 100% and therefore would never make class swaps or admit errors to parents.

Obviously this is a slightly different situation given my son's fairly severe SEN - but I just wanted to tell you OP that I do feel for you and your DD. It is a horrible situation for you both.

What's key here is the school made a promise that the DD has clung too - which has now been revoked

This

I understand... and it sucks.. I am sorry. We have been there.. with a less sociable child for whom bonds are very important. To be the one left in the other class, when you have fought so hard to form those bonds is difficult. Yes, it is a life skill to make friends but strong bonds are also important.

BlackbirdSingsInTheDeadOfNight Wed 19-Jul-17 12:57:2

Wow how appalling.

lone I disagree I think lots of bonding stuff happens within the class room. Sadly after speaking to pastoral care about a situation a while ago I have zero faith that she has a clue as to what goes on in any situation, I have zero faith there.

My dd year is dominated by some extremely bad behavior by the same group of boys. Its like the whole class is purely geared to them and their behaviors all the time I think this is why they have not moved the class this year.
Dd also - gets used frequently to sit next to them and whilst one or two are OK, a few others she utterly dreads and has said she cant wait for the time he is taken out by the ta for one on one work so she can get some peace.

I work in a school with mutliple classes in each year group. We re-mix sometimes, but not always.

Just to present the view from the other side:
A school will not move a single child from one class to the other, except in the most grave circumstances (e.g. severe bullying). If they did so for friendship issues - especially in cases like this where a pupil or parent would PREFER to be with particular children but is not totally socially isolated in their own form - then the floodgates would open. Parents might request - openly or by saying 'but my child needs to be with their friends' - 'well, I don't want my child to be with X [where X could be vulnerable, have SEN, be from a marginalised social group, have behavioural issues and be on a managed move] etc etc etc.

So the school is faced each year with the question 'Do we re-mix the whole year group, or do the classes function well as they are currently constituted?' 'Functioning well' will involve a balance of abilities, a balance of needs, as far as possible an equal number of girls and boys, no friendships that disproportionately disrupt class time (either through off-task behaviour or through endless 'getting on and falling out' issues that can take up days of adult time over a year), a spreading across the year group of those with behavioural or learning needs etc.

If all classes in a year group are functioning well and progressing well, then it is unlikely that they will be mixed. Mixing takes an enormous amount of time and effort, so it is not undertaken lightly if it is not necessary. Even if there are some niggles or imperfections in the current arrangement, there will obviously be some new ones in the new arrangement, so we always weigh up the 'is it worth mixing?' very carefully.

If one or more class is not functioning well, then they will be mixed, taking all the above factors into account to create new balanced classes. We will always ensure that a child is with at least 1 'decent' friend - not necessarily a close friend, but we ask them to name 5 and they are guaranteed 1 - but we are also well aware that some children who are friends i the playground or out of school who will learn better when separated. In fact sometimes part of the rationale of mixing is to actively manage friendships that are disruptive to learning, as described above.

We always make parents aware that we are going to re-mix, and invite them to make any specific comments, though unlike the children - who we do guarantee one child from their list - we only guarantee to parents that we will take their views into account. However the final class lists are always a compromise and never make everyone happy!

I suppose what I'm saying is that the school cannot move a single child from 1 class to another, and if you asked whether this had ever happened, you would probably find that it was exceptionally unusual and only for grave cause that perhaps could not wait until the end of an academic year. The school is then faced with the question of whether, on balance, the disruption of re-mixing everyone is worth it to achieve a marginally better outcome for your DD (and I would agree that many of the closest friendships on entry to year 5 do not survive that year). in this case, they have obviously decided not - which will not be because they don't care about your DD, but because they are managing the needs of 60 children + 2 class teachers + the school overall.

X-posted with your last, OP.

If you are unhappy with the behaviour in your DD's class - rather than your initial post which was about not being with her friends - then perhaps moving schools is your best option.

You then have to consider whether removong her from her friends entirely is better or worse than being in a class with some disruptive pupils - of whom there will be some in virtually every school, but in some the behaviour may be better managed.

Final thought - your comment about the group of boys gives a possible clue as to the reason for the HT's seemingly cold attitude.

It is quite possible that she has been dealing with a long series of overt and coded 'I don't want my child in the class with the badly behaved children in it' approaches from parents within your DD's class. One of the 'coded' versions could well be in the form 'My DS / DD's friends are all in the other class, please can they transfer?'

So although your primary reason for wanting your DD to be in the other class is friendship grouping, not behaviour within the class, it is possible that a HT, dealing with a series of very similar requests / conversations, may mistakenly group them together. Knowing the background and needs of the class in general, and of these boys in particular, her job is to weigh up how to meet the needs of everyone as best she can - and that doesn't always match with being able to give everyone exactly what they want.

Thanks cant informative post.

In our school however the policy is too Mix every year.

The only year they did not was exceptional circumstances. Hence we are all expecting them to mix and it was sprung on us they were not mixing.

I totally understand the "prefer" to be with friends option which is why we have not made a fuss about this all years past. I understand they dont do things on a whim, but my DD has a massive wobble in the school one year ie - very low - crying in class, afraid of the teacher at the time, cut off from her friends, another girl trying to isolate her etc etc etc.

The naughty boys are spread in both classes, not all in one class, they have to be constantly moved around, sometimes up and down a year, or from class to class so there is no escaping them. HT now knows and has been told for a while of DD issues.

Really hope you have some success with this and you work something out.

Whilst all students would love to be in class with their best friends, in many cases those students don't actually work well together. We've just split our grades as we have too many students newly enrolled, and one of the main considerations was how different students worked together.

I think you are getting too focussed on this, and this in turn could be rubbing off on your DD. You need to look at why she is not making new friends in her own classroom.

I do sympathise - sometimes children do not gel no matter how much you try and encourage friendships in the new class - my son had a similar experience big gangs of friends kept together when the classes where spilt after reception with just him and a minority 20-30% left with one friend etc felt very unfair and I did complain at the time with valid cause (which I won't bore you about now )

However although I though it was extremely badly handled by the school they were clear that classes where only changed once at entry into YR1 and. would not ever be changed again. Being honest we did consider moving schools for a variety of reasons that we were unhappy with - this being just one of them but then completely unexpectedly DS loved YR1 and am so glad he didn't stay with his original friends as he has a far better teacher and I thought the mix of children in his class was far better although he has struggled to find the "best friend" but we are hopeful that this will come in time

The issue I think is v unfair is that an indication was given to you that a change may happen in future years and obviously this hanging on in hope and then being continuously disappointed is now almost a bigger problem

In our case if YR1 had not gone well we would have simply moved DS

This IS going to sound harsh but I am wondering if the friendship split is affecting your DD because you are investing so much time into it and feeding it the problem that, from your own words, isn't actually there!

I have a friend who was very vocal about her son (YR) being kept back in a split Y1/R class when the rest of his YR peers moved to a straight Y1 class. Her son initially voiced his displeasure at this and his mum jumped on the bandwagon and mad it her ultimate goal to ensure that he was paired with his best friend for Y2. Admittedly, she got her way and since then her DS has been with his friends since. But everyone wondered whether this was an actual problem for him or for his mum! Sometimes, it isn't actually our children's issues or problems but we make them into their dilemmas by continually feeding the issues.

You said that your DD gets on well with others in her class. She has play dates with them and she sees them during break and lunch times. So actually, she sees her friends JUST as much as she would do had she been in the same class. It sounds like your DD needs THEM to hold her hand during lesson time and them simply being there gives her confidence.

I told you it would be harsh but I think your DD's problem is not necessarily being split from her friends, but actually her confidence to stand on her own two feet! Especially seeing as you said she burst into tears when she found out that again she wasn't going to be placed in the same class as her choice of play dates.

How is she going to cope at Secondary school? There will be an even lesser chance of her being with her play date friends then than there is now. Even in Primary, there is no guarantee that she would be in the same ability groups as her play date friends or sitting on the same table. So their contact time together in the same class may not even be increased!

I do think that this may not be such a massive problem if maybe you didn't give it as much time and effort into trying to 'sort it out'. It sounds like she is hanging onto false hope that things could change caused by you telling her things that are not determined by you and things that have not even been promised. 'We'll see what we can do' is NOT saying 'We'll change her classes'. Even though you might think, 'nothing has changed' that is precisely IT! Nothing has changed because nothing CAN change. 'We'll see what we can do' is not a promise to change things. I do believe THIS is why your DD is still hoping for something that isn't going to happen.

She, even at Primary age, is going to have to understand that she is not going to be taught in the same class as her friends. She goes to school to learn.

Sorry if this is harsh, but it to me, this is YOU feeding her anxieties and worries. Try not to be so 'invested' in this 'I'm not in the same class as my play date friends'. If she sees that you don't see an issue in this, she may back off. But seeing as this has been going on for so long, you may have a battle on your hands.

Ask her how she is going to cope in Secondary School. if you 'give in' to her teary demands of 'I want to be in the same class as my play date friends', you could end up with the same problem arising again when she's 11.

Good luck whatever you decide to do. If you REALLY, REALLY, that bothered that despite her being taught in a class of children she admits to getting on with and not with her play date friends, then maybe ask the school what their criteria and reasons were for splitting her up from these other girls.

Hi

What I'm wondering is what the teachers she's had, and the support staff, have said about how she is at school. They can be very astute observers of friendship dynamics, inside the class an at playtime

I hear from you that you are quite anxious about this. Sometimes what children say about what happens at school, and what is going on, are not the same. Sometimes children ramp up the emotion in order to elicit a reaction from us

I would also add that year 5 is an interesting year on terms of children developing confidence and a sense of themselves aside from their friends. Friendships break and form quite a lot in year 5, which can be painful. But it's also a year that can see children blossoming.

... Oh I see banging has said what I wanted to say.

Something you said also stands out to me. You said she didn't 'get maximum happiness' out of school. But that doesn't mean she's continually desperately unhappy, or that maximum happiness is possible, or even desirable. I know it's really really hard (my DS1 has never really loved school) but sometimes there really is nothing you can do to make everything perfect for them. I am looking back with the benefit of hindsight and seeing that you can only do your best (which you have been) to support them, and the rest is up to them

Cansu
Governors will not be able to tell the HT to make an exception for one child.
If one parent has their child moved and it becomes public knowledge then others may make the same request.
The HT should be concentrating on sorting out the alleged behaviour problems within the class.