What can be done WWYD dc left out of friendship grp in class for 4th year running?

[MintJulip]

Usually, they split classes, but for last three years they are not going too, in spite of for other years telling us how crucial this is. They shook up classes a few years ago and the way the cookie crumbled left DD to be the only one out of a group of four - in the other class.

Some said the would look at this going into year 4 but she was left out again as they didnt change class - we really hoped this year they would move class so she had a chance of being with at least ONE of the other three and yet again they have left class the same.

what can I expect? WWYD. I would say - just move her into the other class! Easy Peasy but as usual - things are never so simple are they.

I don't see the issue here. Do they have different playtimes? Does DD not mix with her friends then? Or at lunch?
Even if she was in the same class would it really make that much difference? Would the teacher not group them by ability anyway, you don't get to choose who you sit next to.

I completely agree with red. If your dd is moved, then every other parent can demand their dc is moved. Unless there are serious issues, eg bullying, I just don't think it warrants it. You say you've been dealing with it for years and there's nothing you can do, so I think basically your dd needs to get used to it. She makes other friends within the class, still sees her old friends outside of the classroom. ..I don't see any other solution. Friendships at that age are extremely fickle anyway, who's to say if she was with them 6 hours every day, that the friendship would have lasted?

All this 'they'll still mix at lunch and breaks', 'they will still see each other after school' stuff was the response I always got. When they are bonding in class, gossiping about classroom stuff, laughing about things that happened in class at lunch and break and then going off in a different direction when the bell goes, it hurts. It matters in that moment, when that child feels the odd one out from the group she is closest to. In the greater scheme of things is it important? I don't know. But it's important in that moment, to that child and it happens every day. ' go and find other friend's', she did, but it was never the same depth of friendship and it was hard for her. I get the point that it would be choas if every parent went in making demands about their child being in a class with their friend's, but they always seem quite accommodating when people don't want their child with a certain person. I know some kids go through some really awful stuff at school and I suppose this doesn't compare, but when you see your childs confidence and self esteem diminishing in front of your eyes, and they are just going through the motions at school instead of embracing it as they did previously, it's so frustrating when the solution seems so simple but no one will take you seriously.

Whilst I think you may be making too much out of it, the school could change the class if there is space. Is there actually room for her in the other class without bumping someone else? If so, rather than discuss endlessly the whys and wherefores, have you actually directly asked if she can move to the other class? I work in a school where they would absolutely move a child if they were unhappy as long as they were not going to cause issues in their new class or it was just a whim on the part of the parents or child. Anyway you should ask assertively. Make an appointment with the head and ask. Make it clear that you have held off asking in the past as you had expected the classes to be mixed up as in previous years.

just everything you have just described about the nuances in friendships and groups is what I tried to convey to the teacher, and pastoral person a few years ago, I was slammed down for being ridiculous, they still play outside.

Obv you know what I mean just, you get it! Its so hard to describe how I feel right now, being dismissed straight out of hand.

Maybe I am being silly, maybe this is not on their priority list, I just found the head - the way she spoke to me today arrogant and rude.But the impression they give is that of a friendly school where you can raise concerns?

I don't understand why the head was so dismissive and hard. There seems to be no hand over between teachers and staff and retention is a problem. I am at a loss as to who I am supposed to speak to about what. I also dont feel saying " by the way - just to let you know, my DD has had a bad experience over x years with your policy" is making a fuss, surely a good school would want to know?

cansu

But I did exactly that today, I said I have been holding off for years -(but you should be aware this has been an issue for years), and now I am asking can you just move her please. She has tried this situation for a number of years, you have been made aware in the past of it - and I was dismissed out of hand, spoken to coldy, made to feel stupid for raising it and basically i came away from the call feeling, its non of mine or my DD business what goes on at school, like it or lump it.

I was made to feel like I asked for the moon tied with a ribbon for my special snowflake.
As ever, its clearly something that could be done very easily in another school but our head is choosing not too.

Does it make you sad they are not together?
To be honest very few children are "best friends" with people they were in reception with, as friendships are usually very fluid. The only time you see children together like that is if their parents are best friends as well.
I my view it is always better to encourage a wider circle of friends because sooner or later there is a falling out or power tussle between BFFs. When she goes to secondary it will all change again anyway, with the introduction of children who went to other schools.

We generally keep classes the same, but every now and again we have to mix them up, usually because some children could do with a breather from others behaviour, or to provide a better mix of abilities. We are not in the habit of splitting people up ' just because', ...
This year was one of those years for year 2. The children were asked to write down the names of two people they really wanted to be with, and one person they wouldn't mind being with. We did our level best to accommodate those wishes, whilst still keeping a balance. It was hard work, but everyone seems relatively happy with the outcome.

I find the "they can meet up at lunch time and play afterschool" actually completely misses the issues.
Firstly, having watched various classes being mixed up over the years, almost all friendships that are split, especially with girls, don't last the split. That tells you for a start that it does matter. If it didn't change the dynamics of a friendship then that wouldn't happen most of the time.

Secondly if they are going to meet their friends from the other class at lunch/afterschool etc.it actually keeps them separated from the children in their class. Children very quickly don't want to be friends during lessons only. And as an adult I can find it hard to negotiate two sets of friends that only have me in common, children find it hard too. So it makes it harder to make friends from the new class.

Thirdly it does matter in lessons. It's the "quick find a partner"-and the sad wait for everyone else to take their best friend and who is left, and praying it isn't a boy.
The school trips where they're sat on their own, the games lessons they have to join in a three and know they're not really wanted, and things like sports day where they can look over at the other class and see their friends having fun without them.
The sympathetic smile when something goes wrong, the silent lending of a rubber, catching the eyes in a shared joke. The asking a friend what they were meant to bring to school tomorrow because they missed what the teacher said, giggling on the way out of school because of something in lessons...

And the feeling that no one there totally has your back.

Thank Jam. After reception she was moved away by dint of the draw, from her close friends. We did all the widen friendship stuff and year 1 we had lots of play dates and she had more acquaintances. Year 2 the reception friendship was a dead in water but by half way through year 2 became much closer to two other girls. Separated again from them in year 3, so we back to widen circle. I really don't see how much more circle wider she can do. It pains me hear that other schools just move dc, our head is choosing to keep my dd apart. Again. And she doesn't understand and she isn't bothered.

If you're genuinely concerned, move schools. Plenty of time for her to settle into a new school and make new friends.

Kids rarely have a chance to chat though and 'socialise' during lessons. All the friendship is during break and dinner. Like others I'm a bit stuck to see where the issue is. I was in a 3 form entry primary schools and none of my good friends were in my class.

Witch why can some people get this but others in the school dismiss this as nonsense. Surely being in an actual school people would be more not less sensitive to it. I wish I could write your and just posts to so called pastoral lady and the head.

Our school mixes all 3 classes every single year. I hate it and my child hates having to renegotiate friendships rather than have special friends.

So envious of 1 class intakes!!

But they usually line up for lunch and don't sit together - wet play keeps them in separate classes - bus trips in tows in class on each deck - split for swimming and sports

Some days she won't see her friends all day!

Been there some that

Email then head - explain from the beginning DD has hoped to be reunited with her friends - she Ian emotional andnits affecting her love of learning - she struggling with current class friendships and that you'd hoped they'd keep their promises

Put it in writing -

In you OP you say she was part of a close group of 4 in Year 1 and has been separated from the other 3 for years 2,3 and 4- and now also for Y5.

Now you are saying she was separated from close friend after YR (??), Made two new close friends in Y2 and has now been separated from them..

Do you think it could be just that your DD has a bit of an issue with friendships, as many girls of this age do, and there are dramas and angst and 'I'm playing with you/ not playing with you' issues that regularly make her think the grass is greener in the other class?

My DS (Y2) has been split from his very best friend next year. They tell everybody that they are brothers- they are really super close. Neither of them is the least bit bothered by the split. They know they will see each other all the time at breaks and at home. Spending a few hours in lessons with other people is clearly no big deal to them. It doesn't HAVE to be a drama. Especially not years on.

No that's not quite right low, it's very confusing... ..
There have been two core groups and both are in other class
One of dd good friends is easier to see out of school, mum easy to contact etc and also keen to arrange play, the other mum of her closest friend is far more elusive, I have had to work really hard to make sure dd sees her in holidays and stuff. The mum doesn't seem bothered at all whether they see each other or not. However her dd still has a close friends in the other class
I could put it in writing but have no idea what to say when they clearly are not bothered by how dd feels or her welfare
It's just an non issue.
They just don't care and on one hand we have been told classes have to be mix and now as I said they don't mix dd year.
Forum needs personally I feel that embarrassed by today's conversation.
I struggle to understand when they gave no notice at all they wouldn't mix classes why I was supposed to ask this back in Easter? It never occurred to me they wouldn't mix them. It's a shock for all parents not just me. Secondly I don't expect expect busy head to remember, but I lost my last parent in March too, dd had a time off f school and being exector and his estate being hundred of miles away I have had a lot to do.
The tone in which she said 'why didn't you come earlier'... I just feel so let down .

Thing is from a teacher's point of view it probably makes the classes easier to handle. They mix up any children who misbehave together, and share out children who need extra help etc.
I'm sure they don't want to upset children and break up friends, but actually that's usually the parents that end up dealing with the fall out, so that goes down the priority list. That may be cynical, and I accept that it does take a lot of time figuring out the forms, but I think friendship comes at the bottom of the list.

From parents' point of view. What I notice is that there's two sets of parents that like the mixing of the class. One is those with confident children who make friends quickly. They just add the latest set of friends with easy to their mix. They tend to mix with those who are also socially confident, so the parents have the view that it's great for making lots of friends.
The other set are those whose dc have had issues in the class. Sometimes it's just another child they don't get on with, sometimes it's just no friends, sometimes it's the child's behaviour being the problem and the parents hope every year that they won't be the "naughty one" in this class.

Personally I think if it's good for the children to be mixed up every year and make new friends it equally applies to the teachers. I think any school that does this should link with 3-4 other local schools and the staff be mixed up every year. Our head disagrees, but all his arguments for mixing the classes up would apply equally well to the staff. (good to work with different people, stops people relying on one person etc.)

At our school they also ask every child to write down 10 children from their own class they want to stay with. Think back to your class at school; would there really have been 10 children you wanted to stay with? Generally if they get child 1-2 on the list they'll be happy. If they get 9-10, well I know I wouldn't have been able to name 10 people I'd have wanted to be in the same class. As my dd1 put (they didn't mix back then) "there were about 5 people I'd have wanted to stay with, about 5 people I definitely didn't and 20 people I couldn't have minded either way".
What's more, even with 10 children on their list and the "guarantee they'll be with one" there are several children every year that I am aware of get none. And it's never the confident ones, who seem to manage to stay with the same children every year right the way up.

The other issue I have is if they are split from their friends is they have no way of requesting the next year that they go back together again. They can't name children from another class. And at 5 form entry, the chance is not great.

Op, don't feel bad about not going in. I doubt extremely it would have made any difference at all. one parent going in saying "My dc wants to be back with their friends" is not going to change their mind on not mixing. They might have told you sooner that they weren't, but I suspect you'd have got along the lines of "they play nicely with lots of people in their form, and they play with their friends at lunch so it doesn't matter".

I can see you're clearly quite upset about this, and I do feel for you and your daughter.

Really, the big problem here is that your daughter has, for whatever reason, failed to make solid, strong friendships within the class she's been in for the last 3/4 years. That's quite unusual, and the problem that I would be focusing on. The fact that she made friends in reception/yr 1 who are now in the other class is actually a bit of a red herring. It's normal for primary age children to have quite fluid friendships and, particularly for girls, to make and break friendships frequently. It's quite unusual for a child not to be able to find a good/best friend in a class of 30, or to cling onto friendships from previous classes.

Given that the Head has made it clear that your daughter won't be moving classes, you really need to focus on helping your daughter make good friends /join a solid friendship group in her own class. Perhaps go all out over the summer holiday having playdates/days out etc with one or two of your daughters favourite friends from her new class. Make those the main focus of her summer play dates rather than her old group of friends.

I see what your saying Mrsm but thats not quite true, She had good friends nursery up to reception, great. YEAR 1, no.
We did have play dates and she did make friends, certainly but not on same level of closeness as nursery /reception. Year 1 was full of class parties and lots of play dates with different girls.

Year 2, away from initial friends again, that friendship was truly killed off ( the nursery reception one) .Mid year two she started to really hit off with a girl on outside of other friendship group...great, two /three really good friends...until year 3 she was ripped away from them and there was big wobble...
year 3 and 4 she made closer friends with these girls outside school...so thats good but she is still not with them in class. I have explained most suff we have done, outside with other dc too to extend, she is not sat alone, as other pp said - its not the same. I help her and make her - try to feel better about it every, single. year. I am fed up now. Its not a new class its the same old class she has been stuck in, we have had play dates previously and I cant force her again to revisit these.

witch my dd was never given a list of who she wants to go with at all since Nursery asked us the parents.

I agree they dont see the fall out and I would love to know why moving DD would massively affect the heads quality of life over my DD's who lives with their choices every single day . I am fed up of trying to make her feel better about it, fed up of slogging away outside school to contact vague DM who are not so bothered because their DD have been fine and been with other friends! Fed up of constantly working away at this when in truth I feel her quality of every day life has been massively affected by this stupid rule, and one this year - thrust on us with no warning.

Its supposed to be a caring catholic school to boot and I have seen zero evidence of caring in this scenario. They literally go blank.

Is it possible the parents if one of the friends has requested they are kept apart for some reason? Obviously the head couldn't tell you this and that may have been why he/she was not keen to engage in the conversation.

I doubt it very very much. And even if the other parent did - maybe its her time her DD went into the solitary confinement of the other class without the cohort!

If she has said no on the phone to you book a face to face appointment. If you can go with your childs father as well. Explain why its important again. If she refuses to budge ask for why it isnt possible. If she says no space ask if she can move if anyone leaves the class mid year. Follow up the meeting with a letter to governors. Be polite but persistent. She might give in to get rid of you.

Mint - I totally and completely empathise. In fact I have just drafted an email to our head to ask (again) if they will move him for Y5 because it's been a nightmare for him since they separated him from his friends in Y1. He plays with them every playtime, he sees them at rugby etc outside of school, and he's been picked on and bullied by the children in his class since he moved (some of whom are supposed to be his friends). I don't hold out any hope that the school will do anything - the deputy head told me today "he can still see them at playtime". Well, that's alright then....all I can do is hope that as happened with my first child, secondary school is the making of him and he will be able to be happy and fly with 'his' people once he's made the transition...but it's a long time to wait and I wish the school was more sympathetic/proactive.

Maybe the other mums aren't so bothered because their daughters aren't? Just because these girls play with your dd at school, doesn't necessarily mean they want to out of school, maybe they don't feel the same way about the friendship as your daughter does? Kids will often play with lots of children at school simply because they're 'there', but may not be interested when holidays etc come round, because the friendship isn't that strong. In my experience, when kids want to see certain other kids, most parents will try and accommodate it. I know it's hard when you see your child as the one left out, but if school really won't move her then I think you have to accept it and move on. Maybe in the next couple of years, she will suddenly make good friends in her class. Fwiw, my yr.4 dd 2 best friends this year are not the same two from reception /year 1, even though her class has never changed.

Maybe the other mums aren't so bothered because their daughters aren't? Just because these girls play with your dd at school, doesn't necessarily mean they want to out of school, maybe they don't feel the same way about the friendship as your daughter does? Kids will often play with lots of children at school simply because they're 'there', but may not be interested when holidays etc come round, because the friendship isn't that strong. In my experience, when kids want to see certain other kids, most parents will try and accommodate it. I know it's hard when you see your child as the one left out, but if school really won't move her then I think you have to accept it and move on. Maybe in the next couple of years, she will suddenly make good friends in her class. Fwiw, my yr.4 dd 2 best friends this year are not the same two from reception /year 1, even though her class has never changed.