giving home school books (text books etc...)

[rrbrigi]

Hi,
I would like to start a discussion to find out opinions for parents and teachers about giving home school books (I mean the books which the children work in each lesson).

As a parent I think it would help me a lot if I could see what my child learnt in the school each day. Specially from math, English and science.

My child is ready to learn with me at home around 60 mins a day. But the problem is I do not know what to practice.

I think it is useless to practice the fractions at home (because I think he needs practice on that bit) when they learn the long division in the classroom. I think if I could practice the same thing with him at home as he does in the school, it could help him to improve his math way better than just random practices every day. But just practicing something on mymaths won’t deepen his knowledge, in fact it could make him confused, because they did not learn that in the school yet, or the work is too easy or hard. They got homework once a week from math (1 A4 paper maximum), but it does not reflect the whole week maths lessons. We do random practices know, but I do not think it benefited him at all, just took the time from him to do something else.

It also would help me to see what he does in school for English. For example, if he needs to write a story at home seeing his English book I would know the quality of writing he would be capable of and I also would see his teacher comments, so I would know what should he include in his story. Or I could see which part of the grammar they are learning in the school, so we can practice that at home. I think there is no point of practicing the power verbs at home when they are learning about adverbs in the school.

From Science is the same. If I would know what they do each lesson, we could see videos from the same thing, or reading pages on the internet about the same thing, it would help him to catch his interest in Science and deepen his knowledge.

It would be better for the teachers as well, because I do not think I am the only one who would help her kids to learn. Parents could spend the daily learning time with their kids more effectively and as a result kids would have better understanding about the things they learn.

I just feel that without his school books I do not even get the possibility to support his learning on the way he deserves. If I could see what he learnt in the school each day I strongly think as the time goes I could even improve his GCSE mark as he would get without this support.

So my question is:
Teacher why do not give the school books home?
Parents what do you think, would you like to see your children school books every day to help them in their learning journey?

Thanks for reading it.

To clarify my post to rrbrigi - choosing to help your own child is fine.

However, assuming that the only reason other parents don't do as you do is because they have CHOSEN not to is wrong. Yes, there are parents who could support their children but choose not to. There are others who would choose to if they could, but don't have the skills. There are also parents who simply cannot.

This doesn't imply a 'race to the bottom' where nobody reads with their child at home because some parents are illiterate. If you read with your child at home every day, it means that school resources can be focused on those whose parents are illiterate.

It's a bit like the 'get on your bike' employment messages from politicians - yes, there are people who choose not to work. However, that should not close our eyes to the fact that there are some people who cannot work and thus need support.

rrbrigi, IME secondaries hugely underestimate what their intake can do, and re-teach things they don't need to.

There is a Y6 / Y7 transition project going on locally at the moment, where primary teachers train secondary teachers in what their pupils have already been taught, and secondary teachers visit primaries to see books and observe lessons. It has led to the re-writing of schemes of work in English and in MFL so far, and I anticipate Maths will follow now the new curriculum is embedded.

cantkeepawayforever I feel really sorry for the children whose parents has health problems and the ones who are in care. But all the others is a choice for the parents, not speaking English is the choice of the parent, working long hours is the choice of the parent, being part of a religious group is the choice of a parent.
The chance in our life are not balanced, some people have more money, others better health, some none of them.

Should I feel guilty because I have time to support my children and I would like to use my time to support him to help him get a better chance to live a good life?

Practice of 4 operations, I agree - a bit like tim,es tables, just not enough time for enough rote learning in class. So a couple of examples of each each week, and routine maths facts homework of a couple of minutes a day is showing huge dividends, especially for lower middle and lower ability pupils,, who tend to need more routine practice to retain what they have learned.

I think problem is that the teaching in England largely depend on each individual teacher's ability.
If we get teachers like the ones we encounter on MN, yes, we can leave the teaching to teachers, and just relax at home.
It seems like a lot of parents having difficulty accepting English system have some problem with school/teacher with their children's education.

I just find it fruitless comparing education back home and here now,
since I chose to raise a child here. And English system has a lot of great things and my country's system has a lot of faults.

These days, there are so much we can find out on internet.

I like the mastering system in maths, but our school isn't doing a great job. But I can get so much info from internet, especially from MN, and help at home. So I am quite positive about ds' education.

I would also say, that in my experience, many people don't actively choose to have children, they just have them. Its not just poverty, or poverty of choice, I know some extremely wealthy women that have children they don't want because of family expectation.

Cant, your school sounds great! With how it seems open to actually try e.g. the teaching for mastery stuff and then accepts the great results and embraces it. I wish my DS' school were like that!

Though your description of parent involvement just demonstrates to me that the expectations regarding parent involvement are vastly different.

I think teaching for mastery in maths can be very effective, when properly done, even for very able children. (The exceptionally gifted kids might struggle, but they would in any case, because they are, well, exceptional.) Because there is so much depth that can be explored. Instead many teachers just do the 'bigger numbers' approach and claim that the mastery curriculum prevents them from moving the children onwards.

I agree with OP that on the face of it, having my child's maths work 'marked' (as opposed to instant feedback) does not seem to be of any benefit to my child, and, on the surface, could easily be dispensed with. I am assuming that the teacher has a more sophisticated understanding of where my child is at than 'he got 8/10 so can move on to next item' based on his written work. And hence can plan next steps without having to do 'marking'. Or maybe not? Maybe that's why my child having not a single mistake in his maths books for half a year merely indicated to the teacher that 'he is doing fine, and yes, I do challenge him, he's on my top table' ...?

I didn't refer to a religious group - a child and parent cannot help the cultural group that they are born into.

It is not a choice to be born a Gypsy / Roma / Traveller, for example, and it is not fair to say that a current young mum from one of these groups should have chosen to defy cultural norms (and society's prejudices) to attend school full time as a child. It is also not fair to say that we should force them to overcome their deep fears of school - caused by the prejudice and bullying that they encountered there as a child - and defy the society in which they live, to learn the literacy sills as an adult that they did not as a child.

Showing a secondary teacher what has been taught to each child in primary is sometimes different from what that child really knows. Specially speaking about the 4 operations, and when you do not have 2 minutes to think about how much is 94-36 (for example).

Op, you started to sound a bit obsessed...
Nothing wrong to try to do best for your children.
Do speak to school and come up with something that work for both school /teacher and yourself.
That will be the start.
It really doesn't matter what we say on anonymous forum.(Obviously it's good to hear others' opinions.)

Buig, thank you.

On marking, I always have over 30 children in my class. I often work specifically with a subgroup of them during a lesson, and so will know exactly where that group is by the end of the lesson. However, marking all books is, really, the only way in which I can pick up how ALL the class performed - and then refine the teaching and tasks for each child for the next day to move them on. For example, I might pick up a common mistake or misconception, and design teaching around it, or realise that 50% of the class is absolutely secure and needs a challenge rather than more teaching. If I relied only on 'non marking' methods - whiteboard work, Q&A, children asking for help in lesson etc - amongst 30 there is a chance that I could miss a child who might need extra help of more challenge.

rrbrigi, that's why the teachers come into primary classes to observe and question the children directly.

To look at your example, the arithmetic test in Y6 requires children to carry out calculations, including long multiplication and fractions work, at a rate of just over 1 calculation per minute. A child who can't do what the example you have given in much less than 2 minutes will have no chance, because the more complex calculations take longer and time must be saved in the easy steps.

cantkeepawayforever I understand your opinion. I still think life is full of choices. Some people get on better than others with these choices. Some people take these choices very hard, some ignore them.

I would not like to go in this, but please let me ask a question. Do you think all of those people, families who come from a poorer country because of a choice for a better life here did it easy? I am not a Gypsy BUT left my culture, my country, my village, my past, my childhood and my family behind for a hope for a better life (which I got). Was it easy to leave my life? to learn English? No it was not, BUT it was my choice because I am responsible for my and my kids life.

They may take a little longer in the first week of Y7, because some schools do no real work after SATs so children have a very long break [another subject for another thread].

However a couple of intensive weeks at the beginning of Y7 should be absolutely sufficient to brush up the calculation skills of the majority - obviously a few children will have specific learning needs that will then, as always, need to be catered for, but it doesn't need the whole year group's curriculum to be constrained by this.

BigWeald, your school really does sound awful and not our experience at all - even though of course I don't want to know the day to day ins and outs of what DD does at school, and actively avoid repetition of the school work.

The "learning by rote" thing I wrote earlier was poor choice in mine as it wasn't really what I meant but I was struggling for the right word - incidently your characterisation of UK schools is nothing like my experience 30 odd years ago or what I see in DD, although she's still in the skills learning phase - so she was taught to multiply any two single digit numbers in reception, but doesn't do times tables.) I think the sort of teaching you described where everyone in the class has the same goals for the same lesson, is what I meant, rather than kids having individual goals.

Mostly though, whilst I agree practice is important, it's the idea that knowing what is in the school books is useful to enable that practice as a parent. Particularly because practicing what you did today is probably less useful than practicing the things you did a month ago, even more so when you don't know what the teacher is going to do over the next days - where they might too be revisiting the subject due to kids struggling.

No, I do not think that anyone who makes a major change in their life had it easy - whether it is a move from a different country or simply (historically) from a different class.

As a personal example, my grandfather learned to read in night school as a young adult, because the poverty of his deprived working class background with a disabled widowed mother had not allowed him to attend school as a child.His journey from there to a very senior police officer was extremely difficult, absolutely estranged him from his family and background, and at a personal and emotional level left him a very scarred individual.

I suppose what i am saying is that i do not see it as my place to judge those who have NOT chosen to take an extremely difficult path, e3specially when I have seen the damage in terms of mental illness and isolation that taking that path can cause. It IS my place to do my utmost to equip the children in my care with the tools to take that path in the future if they wish to (no traveller child left that school illiterate, and 100% of them were registered at, and attended, school).

Arkadia, I know I can and do support my DS, just not in the way I expected to. I may say 'less efficiently' but it may turn out to be more a case of 'differently'.

As to Y1 children learning times tables. Well my DS certainly could have. However I volunteer in a Y1 class one morning/week and sadly several of the children are not secure in their understanding of what addition/subtraction is. Some have learned 'addition facts' but cannot add 3 to 15. One child couldn't even tell me how many fingers he had, and when I asked him to count them, resulted in 11. I was at that time supporting the child in doing a worksheet where they were meant to apply their number bonds / doubles knowledge to addition problems such as 15+5. For this class to be asked to memorise times tables would IMO be pointless and counterproductive. Despite individuals in the class being perfectly capable.

Also, the other day DNephew was visiting (from my home country). He is 8 and is nearing the end of his first year of school. Multiplication has not even been mentioned yet. He does not know what a number fact is and certainly has never been asked to memorise any number bonds.
We sat down to play Plyt, a board game that helps practise times tables (no explaining, just practising). As he can count in twos, we set his level of challenge to the two times table, whereas DS just threw two dice (so 1-12 times table) and I threw 4 dice (need a bit of challenge sometimes ;) ) Within moments he was asking to do something harder, we shifted to 4 times table, and by the fourth throw he was working out 12x4 in his head with no support or explanation at all. Point being, when you properly understand addition, then you can work out multiplication, and can grasp what it means. Learning the multiplication facts as 'instant recall' after that will be simple, and a case of 1-2 months. So I disagree with 'learning times tables' as early as possible. By all means, teach multiplication to those who are ready, but memorising can wait until after understanding has been achieved.

I suppose what i am saying is that i do not see it as my place to judge those who have NOT chosen to take an extremely difficult path, e3specially when I have seen the damage in terms of mental illness and isolation that taking that path can cause. It IS my place to do my utmost to equip the children in my care with the tools to take that path in the future if they wish to (no traveller child left that school illiterate, and 100% of them were registered at, and attended, school).

Yes, I agree with you, and I am not judging them too.

rrbrigi.

Good. Your earlier posts did imply that you judged the 'choice' to help your child as better than those who 'had not chosen' to support their, whatever the reason for that choice might be, and however difficult it might have been to make that choice. I'm glad that was just an impression, not the truth of the matter.

I am not judging them. Just saying just because there are parents "who chose not to support their children from whatever reason (easy or hard)", I would welcome the opportunity to support my child learning properly, by looking at his books and explaining the things he did not understand in the school. There and then when he did not understand and not 3 month later, after I find out on the parents evening.

Times tables!
I really don't get the way they teach in England.(Or my ds' school.)
I think I was taught similar to how mrz does, mastered within a very short period of time. Most children were capable.
Ds' school starts introducing it in yr1(2,5 10), try to make everyone capable by yr4.
Why?????

In fact, I'm quite keen to teach DS how he can (quickly and efficiently) work out e.g. 12x4 BEFORE school starts making him memorise it. Because once he has memorised it, why should he ever bother working it out again? Which would deprive him of much useful practice.

And I do feel times tables are 'easy' when you understand addition and multiplication. You start by discovering/understanding the patterns of 10, 11, 5, 2 times tables. After that it's a case of 12x4= 11x4 (known, due to pattern) +4 (easy, due to fluency in addition). Or 12x4= 10x4 (again a pattern) + 2x4 (knowing doubles or fluency in addition, and understanding place value makes 40+8 straight forward.

I don't mean introducing it early. mrz school do it by yr2, I think.
What I mean is why does it have to be spread out for 4 years, in my ds' school's case to master it.

My ds memorised times table before school. Still, I didn't worry too much about it, since he was able to figure out inverse operation.
Also, he was able to work out things like 49 x 49 by doing 50 x 50 -50- -49.