Failed phonics y1 phonics test & advanced reader

[Robindrama]

( I have another thread here but will post specific question as a separate one) any ideas will be much appreciated.

Ds in y1. Just had a parents evening. End of year prediction: reading above expectation, but will fail phonics test.
Question: how can that be possible?

School reading levels are 1-26, 26 free reader. End of y1 expected level is 17/18. DS is currently on level 20. Excellent reading and advanced comprehension.
Phonics tests results 23/40. Expected to fail the test. I will have a meeting with teachers shortly.

With a dictionary, for meaning. For pronunciation is look for the bits that are similar to words I already know and copy the pronunciation. Sort I'd use Hertz as a template for Xertz and pubescent or effervescent as a template for erubescent.

Whether this will result in the correct answer I've no idea. Dh does quite often correct my pronunciation of certain words (usually to do with how I pronounce the vowels). I always assumed that my lack of ability in this area was due to having parents who have English as a second language and also pronounce incorrectly but I guess it could be due to lack of phonetic knowledge.

Whether this will result in the correct answer I've no idea. Dh does quite often correct my pronunciation of certain words (usually to do with how I pronounce the vowels). I always assumed that my lack of ability in this area was due to having parents who have English as a second language and also pronounce incorrectly but I guess it could be due to lack of phonetic knowledge.

So you faced with reading them aloud but don't have a dictionary or time to use one if you did ... what strategy would you use?

"Sort I'd use Hertz as a template for Xertz and pubescent or effervescent as a template for erubescent."
So you're using phonics ...your knowledge of how written symbols relate to spoken sounds in familiar words. That's Phonics!

Barbarian, as mrz says, because you're using your existing knowledge of the sounds that letters make (alone or in combionation), you are using phonics to decode these unknown words.

It's not the mst efficient phonic method - because it is using 'known word chuynks[' rather than the much smaller number of standard graphemes, but it is definitely a phonic strategy.

DS - a self taught reader - had this as an intermediate stage. He went from recognising certain letter strings (e.g. his name) as 'wholes' to then seeing those within a word, and finally refined that to applying more standard 'bits' of those letter strings to decode further words. Fascinating - but probably easier to learn the building blocks first, rather than recreate them from first principles!

Ok yes, of course. But I can do the "bits" in isolation very well. So I couldn't tell you all the ways you can get an 'e' or 'ow' sound, and was taught the "magic e" rule (only it's not called that) 5 years ago by my MiL. And I've no idea why a lot of words are pronounced the way they are - "does" for example. I see the pattern when it's female deer, but not why it would be "duz"

X post

During the actual test: do the alien words have alien pictures?

Yes, they have alien pictures

See MRZ's post of Sat 01-Apr-17 18:56:20 for a fuller description of the screening and how it is carried out.

The pseudo words all have a picture of an imaginary creature next to them and the teacher tells the child that the words on this page aren't real.

Thank you!

BarbarianMum most of us who learnt to read "easily" have managed to work out how our written language relates to spoken words without the need for direct teaching. Unfortunately many struggle to do this and until a learner begins to "fail" it's impossible to know who will work it out and who won't which is why explicit teaching for all is considered the best option. The phonics screening check identifies those in danger of "failure" so additional support can be provided to prevent failure.

The imaginary creature looks very alien, so whilst the word alien is never used as mrz says. If any kid doesn't think of it as an alien creature, then I think they're living in quite a different environment to most kids in England, as they're not drawn like any weird real creatures, but very cartoon alien like.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe

I guess you have to be able to read before that applies though ella

Mrz I'm not knocking the way phonics is taught now, or even the need for a screening check, so sorry if it came across that way.

I'm old - very old and threads like this make me feel even older - what is the purpose of making children read made-up words?

Ella you do realise that is an internet meme? The actual research shows that jumbled letters significantly slow down even the most fluent reader and the more the letters are jumbled the greater the difficulty reading.
You might notice in that piece that the first and last letters remain and all the function words are unchanged in order that it can be read.

@madcatwoman

It shows that the child properly understands the concept of phonics and can apply their knowledge, and that they haven't just memorised words.

Some schools get a bit overexcited. For the vast, vast majority of children, all it needs is good, consistent phonics teaching from September onwards.

Though it does seem to be important to have the graphemes of the actual word in there, so you unscramle scrambled sounds.

Or efne it's jcnt nissumwe.

(Letters chosen to be the same size/shape as those of target word, but not to be related graphemes. To show it only works when the right graphemes are there, because the phonic code grapheme-phoneme-meaning is still required, even when it's possible to show remarkable unscrambling by those who know the code well).

"what is the purpose of making children read made-up words?"
The purpose of reading check is to screen for reading difficulties and the use of pseudo words eliminates false positives.

I don't understand how strong readers can fail the phonics test. The words and alien words are all fairly simple, and since all unknown words are alien words, I don't get how a strong reader wouldn't be able to read non words unless there was an issue that needed to be addressed. i was worried that my very strong reader would fail the phonics test because I didn't think she really used phonics to sound out new words. But she got 40/40. I'm dyslexic. I still really struggle with non words (or made up ones). Surely if someone fails it is an important opportunity to make sure there is no problem with further work, or to try and assist a child with help and support if there is a problem.

I think the purpose is very simple. If the child comes across a word they have not heard or read before (of which there should be 10000s as a young child and probably still 1000s as an adult). Do they have the necessary skills to be able to work out what they say.
Rather than choosing words not usually used but present in the dictionary (which it is possible a child may have come across, and also often long and complicated) alien words using simple phonetics are created instead.

"I'm old - very old and threads like this make me feel even older - what is the purpose of making children read made-up words?"

It's valuable (as an explicit thing) only in a screening. Can the reader really read these words? if yes, they are reaching expectations, if no then consider additional support.

But in a sense it's happening every day in every classroom, as children read new texts and meet words they've never seen before. And can read them, because they know how say them from 'decoding' the letters to give the sounds.

"Two years ago (2004) a widely circulated statement on the internet claimed that resarceh at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy fuond that sentecnes in whcih lettres weer transpsoed (or jubmled up), as in the setnence you are now raeding, were easy to read and that letter position in words was not important to read successfully. In actuality, the statement was a hoax in that no such research had been conducted at the University of Cambridge1. We report here results from a study which show that while some variations of sentences with transposed letters are relatively easy to read, other variations are not, and that there is generally always a cost associated with reading words with transposed letters."

Raeding wrods with jubmled letetrs: There’s a cost
Keith Rayner1, Sarah J. White2, Rebecca L. Johnson1, and Simon P. Liversedge