Are the quiet, bright, studious children destined to sit with the disruptive children as a positive influence on them?

[Thisismynewname123]

I have a very bright, hard working, but quiet daughter in Y5. She has always been happy at school, despite occasional social blips, mostly due to shyness, but she is well liked so nothing too major. Following a class mix, she's now in a class that has a reputation for being loud, and generally "naughty" (although I hate using that word). For the first time she is now dreading going to school on a daily basis. She hates that she has to sit with children who talk constantly (although from the teacher's point of view, I assume she has been put where she is as the good influence). She feels as though she is suffering for it. She can't concentrate. She doesn't get drawn into conversations during lessons when she shouldn't be talking, but that now means she feels as though she isn't making any friends in the new class. I feel like she's generally unhappy at school for the first time but I'm not sure there's anything much I can do. As the "good girl" is she destined to always be put in a small group with the difficult (although bright) children who need the good influence, even though she is suffering for it?

Is it worth raising with the teacher, or is too early in the year and I'll just be told she needs more time to settle? I'm not one to be constantly contacting the teachers about one thing or another. I don't want to be "that parent", so I'm just looking for some guidance on if it's justified or not in this case.

I meant more like I don't understand your post being so aggressive and very unpleasant. Sorry, English isn't my first language.

I wasn't just talking about children with SEN, not all children without SEN have lives without issue. Neglect, abuse, poverty, poor parenting, hunger and homelessness would also have a massive impact on a child's behaviour.

The issue is often the lack of support in class.

Schools are having their funding cut, most classes at my DS's school used to have a Teacher and a TA in every class, now they don't.

DS isn't a disruption because he has an EHCP and gets full tme 1:1 support, the boy i requested be moved, has neither at this stage, it could be argued he needs it though.

I wasn't just talking about children with SEN, not all children without SEN have Ilives without issue. Neglect, abuse, poverty, poor parenting, hunger and homelessness would also have a massive impact on a child's behaviour.

Yes, totally agree.

I agree that the issue is down to lack of support in class.
aye I never said I wanted my child to be put above everyone else but I wouldn't have them disadvantaged either. You can't sacrifice one to benefit another. I would always fight my child's corner and if the school wouldn't do anything to address the issue I would put in a formal complaint and go through the system there. The real issue is lack of support and possibly training too. I suggested a roaming seating plan that means everyone is given a trial next to each other. Surely with enough care and consideration there would be a positive seating plan made that has no isolation but also no impacted learning.

I think a rotating seating plan is probably a good idea, what is a better idea is an education system where there are enough resources, staff and training to properly include every child in a fulfilling education. The system is failing as it stands, I think we all know that, it's the overriding attitude of NIMBY that is depressing to me. For example there is a huge campaign up here just now asking parents to encourage their child to befriend someone in care, because statistically looked after children are the most likely to slip through the cracks of a broken system and experience massive isolation and disaffection with society. The fact that there even needs to be such a campaign makes me sad, that looked after children are isolated and parents have to be encouraged to include them.

I have 2 children with SEN and neither are disruptive or noisy in class - ds (12) in particular would much prefer to be left alone in the library and given occasional lectures and avoid the vast majority of his noisy chaotic classmates (NT and SEN alike) entirely! His younger sister is easily distracted and placing her next to noisy, chatty children is disastrous for her learning she finds it hard to concentrate and focus, and as she is emotionally immature she is easily wound up by her classmates.

Perhaps this is more an issue of personality and not about SEN directly - more exuberant and attention seeking personalities have a tendency to overwhelm and over shadow the people around them - they will compete with similar types and take attention from quieter ones. The way a teacher needs to ensure order in the class for optimum learning will vary probably depending on what the class is doing. I am not sure how I feel about this really as I know that even my own 3 children are all different in the way they learn and the best environment for their learning and am at a loss to see how a teacher manages to teach anything at all in modern noisy bright and chaotic classrooms.

My youngest NT child started her new term in y3 upset about the children on her table - they were shouting and it was upsetting her (she has had issues with noise levels at school regularly - there was a time when she couldn't cope with lunch hall without wearing ear defenders), the teacher was understanding when dd raised it with her and she is now sitting with a calmer girl that she is friendly with and is happier about school generally. I am not worried about the teacher having to resit the children - they expect a bit of movement at the beginning of the year when the children are settling in -- new class, new teachers etc. etc. I can only raise my concerns, for my child, that I know about, the potential SEN of the other children in the class is not in my purview - I am not a class teacher - I do not have the knowledge, training and it is not my business.

I trust the teacher to do her best for her class and my child, s/he needs to know about concerns I have and if I am not happy with the way the school is meeting my child's needs then I have the duty to raise it with them.

With my SEN children, I am regularly contacting the school and challenging them on whether they are meeting my ds and dd's needs - that is my job as parent and I take it seriously -I expect the teacher's to be professional and use their judgement to make school as successful as possible for all children - I cannot really do any more than that.

As an aside I also expect a school to step up and admit when they cannot meet a child's needs. A friend of mine with a ds with ASD (as my two also have) was constantly having to bring her ds home after he was too disruptive in class or had a meltdown, he eventually needed to move to a different school with a separate unit for children with SEN attached to the main school and is now in a calm and safe learning environment that meets his needs. Education is not one size fits all, some children need quiet and others need energy - neither should be sacrificed for the other - a classroom of 30 pupils with differing needs is not the necessarily the best place for all children to learn in.

aye a rotating seating plan would be a nightmare for my dd who has ASD. I have had to have it written into her statement that she is seated with a person she is comfortable with. Teachers who constantly change seating plans are a nightmare for her as each time people are moved it unnerves her. They have grasped now that she needs seating with friends in a quiet area they are still yet to grasp that moving the group en masse every three or four weeks is difficult for her too.

Forcing a child to sit in a seat that is hurting their education is unfair

I agree with this. I wouldn't be letting it happen either.

We had this issue last year. I spoke with the class teacher who was very understanding and my DS moved. It improved after that.

Please have a chat with the the teacher and I'm sorry your DD is suffering

insan1tyscartching I'm glad your DD school took what you said on board. To be honest, I thought a rotating seating plan was the least offensive of the suggestions but I do understand that for some kids it would be a complete nightmare, and totally unworkable. It's a worry of mine as DS moves from his unit to mainstream, hopefully we'll get the transitional support to help him cope.

aye I'd advise you to get something in the statement tbh, the school get it now but it's been a while getting there. It's so much easier to just say "you need to meet her statement" than get into the wheres and whyfores of the reason dd is not to be seated in boy girl formation like the teacher prefers.

Can I add to his statement outside the usual times? He has an annual meeting just now, but the deputy is useless to be fair, we're now going over her head because she just won't listen.

I was told any addition to the statement must be discussed at review, and even then it's not definite it will go in. I've learned the hard way on that one. School were dishonest and put it in an area of the statement that was not "enforceable" so they didn't have to provide the support.

Thanks for the advice Ginger is there a way around the review being the only time you can add to the statement?

I'm not sure - maybe check with either Parent Partnership/Sendias or Sossen?? IPSEA is getting more difficult to get ahold of now with their new system.

Well you'd need to ask for an extra review or a reassessment which can be worth it if you don't think you are getting the support they need.
Ginger it's the LA who write the statement, school won't have had any say in that I'd always advise getting it checked by IPSEA or SOSSEN before agreeing any amendments tbh.

insan1ty Our former LA (I've since moved) never ever sent a rep to the reviews, even when asked. They took what the school put on the forms as gospel and that was that. No changes ever went on without school approval. They were the gatekeepers in that regard, and it was a nightmare.

Thankfully, now I'm in a different LA, and we're home educating, so most of the pedantic stuff is irrelevant. Works much better for us.

Ginger that is very naughty, I am the holder of dd's statement and I instigate everything tbh because the school would be happy to let sleeping dogs lie for fear of losing any support whereas I want dd's statement to be a true and accurate reflection of her needs. They let me get on with it tbh not least because the SENCo doesn't really know a great deal about the workings of the LA or the Tribunal process. Then when I get the statement sorted I tell the school what they should be doing and prod if I don't think they are doing it good enough Must say I am not very popular but dd gets the best support of any child in that school

Thanks for all the useful advice Ginger and insan I'll get on to the LA and see where it gets me.

I knew someone with lots of children.

She used to go in after a few weeks and say 'little X has sat next to Y for a while now and is finding it difficult. Perhaps it is time for someone else to take a turn?'

Seemed to work.

insan1ty Yes, they were very naughty. They stated no changes without ed psych input and refused to call in ed psych, LA referred back to school. When I finally put in to home educate, THEN they kicked off and said "oh we'll get ed psych in" and I said "too little, too late." And it was a specialised school. Very naughty. My complaint is not the only one floating about.

"I'm a bit puzzled. Where exactly are they supposed to seat these "disruptive chilldren" if no parents want their children next to them? "

?? What a strange question.

If they are repeatedly disruptive, then maybe there is a case for saying that they should sit alone until they have earned back the privilege of sitting with a partner.

If they have generalized issues with attention/distraction, it could be that sitting alone is the best long-term solution for them as long as they are in the classroom. I suspect that many kids with mild ADHD and similar issues probably found old-school classrooms (more solitary seating, quieter and simpler decor, fewer distractions, no constant non-stop background noise) easier to cope with.

DS can't cope sat next to anyone, so he actually has his own workstation in the corner of the room where his 1:1 sits with him!

Everyone else can move around all they like, DS always has the same seat, at the same desk, with all the same stuff on his table, they even kept him in the same classroom from last year, just swapped which class the yr4 and yr5s used.

They just have to watch who's on the desk next to his.

What a strange question.

Not a strange question at all. Perfectly valid question.

If they are repeatedly disruptive, then maybe there is a case for saying that they should sit alone until they have earned back the privilege of sitting with a partner.

Hardly inclusive.

If they have generalized issues with attention/distraction, it could be that sitting alone is the best long-term solution for them as long as they are in the classroom.

What works for one, may not work for others. And again, it's not really inclusion if they're separated from the rest of the class, especially long term.