Are the quiet, bright, studious children destined to sit with the disruptive children as a positive influence on them?

[Thisismynewname123]

I have a very bright, hard working, but quiet daughter in Y5. She has always been happy at school, despite occasional social blips, mostly due to shyness, but she is well liked so nothing too major. Following a class mix, she's now in a class that has a reputation for being loud, and generally "naughty" (although I hate using that word). For the first time she is now dreading going to school on a daily basis. She hates that she has to sit with children who talk constantly (although from the teacher's point of view, I assume she has been put where she is as the good influence). She feels as though she is suffering for it. She can't concentrate. She doesn't get drawn into conversations during lessons when she shouldn't be talking, but that now means she feels as though she isn't making any friends in the new class. I feel like she's generally unhappy at school for the first time but I'm not sure there's anything much I can do. As the "good girl" is she destined to always be put in a small group with the difficult (although bright) children who need the good influence, even though she is suffering for it?

Is it worth raising with the teacher, or is too early in the year and I'll just be told she needs more time to settle? I'm not one to be constantly contacting the teachers about one thing or another. I don't want to be "that parent", so I'm just looking for some guidance on if it's justified or not in this case.

I'm not getting into the argument about the seating arrangements in the class, whether children do or do not have SEN, or whether it's right to segregate or not.
What I do wish to point out, calmly and politely, that referring to a child with SEN/SN as "an SEN child" or "SN kid" is not okay. Children with SEN have those needs, not are those needs.

Regardless of whether he does or doesn't have a disability, we have classes of around 30 children in the UK. In that group, many won't gel well in terms of learning styles or behaviours. Maybe you could give your daughter some tips on managing her own needs more assertively. If she wants them to stop talking to her, she could tell them or the teacher

This leap to force the "naughty/disruptive" child to sit elsewhere and not next to my child is clearly othering and non inclusive. I haven't seen a response to gingers question on the first page - where do you want all these "naughty" children to sit? Do you want them in the same classroom as your children? In the same school? What difference would knowing their reason for being disruptive mean to you?

For example, if my child has Tourette and has ticks/ vocalizations - can they sit near your child?
What about my child who was abused and neglected and uses disruptive techniques to feel safe and noticed or has a low self esteem and self fulfilled his feelings of shame.
What about my child who has poor boundaries because I'm not a good enough parent but not below the legal thresholds
How about my child who was exposed to drugs in utero and has little impulse control and little understanding of empathy
How about my child who is on the spectrum and struggles in certain situations
What about my child who just won't do what he's told.

Statistically, some of the above children are disrupting your child. Genuine question - what happens to them?

I really don't understand purpose of your post, ginger.

At my dc's school in yr 5 they are given their work, told to go and find somewhere to work either sitting at a table or standing at a workstation. They do their work. They know where they work best. They can sit in one place for Maths another for English. Once they have chosen their spot then they have to sit there for the rest of that lesson but can sit somewhere else for the next lesson/ after break. If a couple were being disruptive then they would be split up and told where to sit. As most of them like the freedom to sit/ stand/ work where they want to then they just get on with the work. For group work they might be put into twos/ threes and sometimes that will be with someone more disruptive/ contributes less than they would like but that is good preparation for life. For the times when they work on their own (e.g. writing a story) then they choose their working environment. As indeed I imagine they all will choose their own career - a talkative person who likes to always be on the go and meeting people is unlikely to want to have my work at home existence, just as I don't want their out there rushing around talking to people all day job. Not sure how secondary transition will go but happy for now.

I really don't understand purpose of your post, ginger.

And that is why we try to keep pointing it out. Trust me, you are not the only one. People need to educate themselves about people with disabilities. They are part of society, you know.

I pointed it out so that you couldn't bash me for not thinking whether he might have a hidden disability.

So instead you just assumed he didn't have one.

You're not answering my question.
Should I have kept quiet knowing that ds was unhappy and unable to concentrate?

Actually, I did answer your question.

Should I have not moved him?

Actually, I already answered your question.

Thanks, ginger. My ds was selective mute in nursery and never spoke to other children. He has adhd/ asd traits and social difficulty. Plus, he has 3 different consultant he sees at regular basis, due to his chronic illness.
Thanks for reminding me I don't know anything about children with difficulties/disabilities.

Navy, you absolutely should put your DS first, the other childs needs are irrelevant if your child is suffering.

The objection is with the assumption this child doesn't have additional needs, when, unless you have spoken to his parents and actually know one way or the other, its not fair to assume otherwise.

When we say 'and he doesn't have any SEN as far as i know' we are effectively cutting off anyone else saying 'have you considered he has SEN' and also that if he DID have SEN, it would make you deal with this differently.

Oh and GingerIvy you will be pleased to hear that it works well for those with hidden disabilities too. Yes they need to take responsibility for their own learning (although there is guidance for those who need it on where to sit), but they can learn to avoid triggers and move away from those who would distract them.

Statistically, some of the above children are disrupting your child. Genuine question - what happens to them?
I gave suggestions, but neither side has an answer. What would you suggest seeing as you are all so all-knowing? If my child's learning is being directly impacted by your child what is your solution? I don't believe childen should be used as extra support for others. It's a sad state of affairs that there isn't proper support but I wouldn't allow my child's education to suffer because of that.

Why do these threads always turn nasty? It's the exclusion posters are unhappy with, and the labelling. The child that is being labelled might have any number of reasons why they're being "naughty" or "disruptive". They may have SN, they may not have SN but have a difficult home life, they may be hungry, tired, stressed, unhappy, bored, any number of things. To segregate children who don't fit into neat little boxes is just nasty, and if you place your child into the state education system with its massive class sizes and understaffed teaching facilities it's part of life. If you choose to move your child because you feel it would be positive for them, that's fine. But expecting whole groups of kids to be segregated because you don't like the way they behave is awful. Not every child has the life your child has, behavioural difficulties can be a sign of many things, and each child needs to be cared for. Not just the "nice" ones who do as they are told.

and ftr, i have had to make a request for a child with SEN be moved away from my DS who has asd/adhd/spd because he thought it was funny to shout 'BANG' at DS and provoke a meltdown.

So yes, i did tell the Teacher to move him away from my DS in class!

Oh and GingerIvy you will be pleased to hear that it works well for those with hidden disabilities too. Yes they need to take responsibility for their own learning (although there is guidance for those who need it on where to sit), but they can learn to avoid triggers and move away from those who would distract them.

Actually, it's not a "one size fits all" kind of thing, you know. It might work well for some, but it might not work for others.

But aye does that mean they should just stand back and watch their child's education being impacted? No matter who the child is that is doing the distracting, I don't think it is fair to say they should just lump it.

Thanks, ginger. My ds was selective mute in nursery and never spoke to other children. He has adhd/ asd traits and social difficulty. Plus, he has 3 different consultant he sees at regular basis, due to his chronic illness.
Thanks for reminding me I don't know anything about children with difficulties/disabilities.

Then quite frankly, I am surprised that you didn't understand the purpose of my post. Just so we're clear, I didn't say that you didn't know anything about children with difficulties/disabilities. I said: And that is why we try to keep pointing it out. Trust me, you are not the only one. People need to educate themselves about people with disabilities. They are part of society, you know. in response to your comment I really don't understand purpose of your post, ginger.

Not really rocket science, but hey-ho.

This is not someone saying "I want my child moved because they're sat next to a child with SEN." She is saying sitting next to this child is having a real, tangible negative effect on my child's education. If it was the former, I would be upset too, but it's not.

All knowing? Where did you extrapolate that from my question? And posters said ginger was aggressive!

I think we need to invest more financially and create a more caring approach. The children I mentioned above in my example with drug exposure or neglect should be given theraplay support to help build their esteem and boundaries. Children with other SEN should be supported with the appropriate care packages. And as parents, we should be more supportive of each other's children.

So, in navy's example, yes it's fine to discuss navy's own child's unhappiness with the school. One resolution might be moving navy's child. Another might be giving additional support to the disruptive child to help his/her concentration.

AGruffaloCrumble so what do you suggest? The children being disruptive need support to be able to get the most out of their education, whether that means a support plan for SEN or it means addressing issues in their home life, or helping them with their confidence, whatever is causing their behaviour to be disruptive. If you want your child's need to be prioritised over everyone else's then that's just not realistic in the state school system. You can't just shove kids into a separate class because they're not convenient to you.

This is not someone saying "I want my child moved because they're sat next to a child with SEN." She is saying sitting next to this child is having a real, tangible negative effect on my child's education. If it was the former, I would be upset too, but it's not.

What if it's the child's disability that creates the tangible impact on your child?