When is the phonics check please?

[EarthboundMisfit]

It must be soon, right? Is there a specific timeframe in which schools have to do it?

Thanks.

Mrz this is a whole other debate, and while i suspect you are well meaning and I don't disagree with phonics as such ( which I hope I have made clear) the issue is that you may know as a parent your child needs support, that they can be off the scale on some factors (in ds case gross motor skills, and some visual perception skills which means he see pictures and word shap not letters thatart of his brain is probably damaged and if not the next part is) and above average on others, ( again in ds case working memory auditory processing and various other things) but there is no specialist provision for children with specific learning difficulties who are not behind in nc levels overall on year 1. It does not exist, and so parents research what to do, neuroplasticity, education methods, physio, ot, etc.etc. and often pay to supplement the nhs and lea provision, to just keep up. I am lucky I know DS school supports him and differentiates, and has been giving phonics support for the last 2/3 terms ( in a group of 8 out of 30) plus one to one support in writing as Ds cannot and will never write rather than type and so is learning phonics without learning to write because it is only now 18 months later that we have got the ICT test so he allowed to type and learn to type rather than write which he is physically incapable of doing. He won't fall through the cracks, but that is because I, the school and various experts including have done the research, on reading, neuroplasticity, had ot, ed psych , visual impairment look at what works and what doesn't given the brain injury. I don't expect the school to do it all. Even though they may be legally obliged to, but just trying to explain why slavish following of phonics and the tests don't work for 109% of children. Now if you know a specialist school for the physically disabled, who are bright, willing to learn, hardworking but need support with neural pathways do please tell me....

I am not having a go, just trying to explain that for a very small minority of children tests are possibly counterproductive, that phonics may not work,and that there are other options which just might be better.

If of course your child is average, but struggling with reading the phonics test should highlight that and get the support in place. But we do have to take care how it is done, what children understand ( children talk to each other too so even if the school are supportive other children will be told by their parents how they did, and pass it on, and there are only so many times you can say every child is good at different things etc. etc. etc. when your child knows they struggle because they are bright enough to understand that others find many things easier...) and how to minimise stress on children, parents and teachers while making sure that no-one falls through the gaps.

Oh and mainstream education is often the only option available. It is very difficult to get special school places even when they are the only suitable schools. There are not enough places and no money for them!

I've had to come back to this thread to express my annoyance at ds's school which is encouraging practice for the screening.

Ds is now reading words as if for a screen - e.g phonetically sounding out words like pilot but then not doing what he usually does by thinking that's not a word I know and trying the alternative sounds.
They seem to be pushing a lot of prep for the screen so I redirect my ire at his school.

Whereonthestair sadly there are children who need such a high level of care their needs can only be met in specialist settings I'm not talking about children who struggle with reading and writing but children with chronic and complex needs.

What I find difficult with the phonics evangelism is the insistence that every child does phonics, and only phonics.

I've read the stats that say that it leaves fewer children behind. I've read the anecdotal evidence on here and elsewhere that 'their child was failed by a non-phonic based system of learning'. I get all that.

What I don't get is why, when a child is CLEARLY not getting the phonics, and is being actively disengaged from school through boredom, why they can't then try a different route. Ds3 I KNOW would have done better with a mixture of methods - he is a v quirky kid, with a quirky brain, all his teachers have said so - massively intelligent, but this isn't demonstrated in ways the school can necessarily measure. But once he's interested, he really does go like lightning.

Had he had access to books that grabbed his attention, he'd have flown with reading, and once engaged could probably have filled in the phonics gaps later. Rather than being bored rigid by the phonics sounds, and disengaging completely.

He's the same with maths - can do amazingly complex calculations in his head, but is bored by number bonds, so doesn't do them.

Goodness knows how he'll have done in his phonics check, but if he hasn't got enough right, he'll continue being bored into Y2....

So that's my gripe - that there is no back up plan for the children who just don't do well with phonics.

"Had he had access to books that grabbed his attention"
If dc was bored of school books, you can always provide with books dc likes at home.

" bored by number bonds"
Encourage him to do more complex number bonds by himself? eg. using all +, -, x, /

That's the strategy my ds figured out to enjoy school work.

Obviously he has had access to books etc at home!!

But we did try to back up the phonics teaching, and if anything, seeing books at home increased his feeling of disengagement with school. Same with maths, he's been able to do add/subtract/multiply/divide in his head since starting reception. Doesn't help him enjoy doing sheets of learning number bonds.

What I meant about using +, -, x , / was, trying to make the target number as many different ways as possible. My ds loved doing it in YR1. You can also use decimals, fractions, powers and square roots, etc. It's a lot more fun than doing simple number bonds.

Sorry Lily but I really don't understand why you think phonics should mean he can't have access to books that grab his attention [puzzled]

I expected mine to find the repetition of phonics boring, but I'm fact they've really enjoyed it, so maybe it depends on the teachers?

Lily, can he actually able to decode or not?
My ds learned to read without phonics. I think he figured it out some how, and I didn't teach him. But knowledge of phonics he learned at school is really a big + now.
Your ds sound similar to mine, with regards to maths at least.
What i try hardest is, to try to encourage him to figure out how to entertain himself, make himself a challenge. Like the number bond example, once he's done the task, make up his own game and target. Otherwise school can be boring.

Just to add that when a child is clearly not getting phonics that should ring loud alarm bells!

Sorry Lily but I really don't understand why you think phonics should mean he can't have access to books that grab his attention [puzzled]

Ok, when ds1 learnt to read, he did a bit of phonics, but mostly it was more of a 'look and say' type method (we're going back a bit now!) - this meant he was able to use his phonics on some words, but also was reading books that he found exciting - because non-phonics words were ok.

I could see this working with ds3 - find a book that he was motivated to read, not worry about the complex words that he needed to read more as sight words, and get the idea that books are fun, books are things he wants to read, and that school books are good.

Whereas he gained an idea that phonics was boring, and the books that use phonics are REALLY dull, and school reading is boring. And because he was bored, he didn't really do much, and of course then got the whole idea that he was rubbish at reading.

That's taken a whole lot of unravelling! In terms of 'ringing loud alarm bells' - the alarm bells it's rung for me are that he is bored. His reading is pretty good now, he's certainly making progress, but still thinks he's rubbish, and passionately hates phonics. The reason it limits books they can access is that this 'pure synthetic phonics' means they are limited to books written with this in mind. And they're just not very interesting, especially for children like ds3.

Earthbound misfit - I think it depends on the child as much as the teacher. Ds2 did really well with phonics, and really enjoyed them, he is very methodical, very fastidious, and likes every detail in place. Ds3 is more 'flitty' and is a dreamer, but is also a thinker, and an explorer - a favourite thing to do is to go on google maps, and explore a new country - e.g. the other day he 'went' to greece, and explored the streets of various towns on street view, discovering it all for himself, piecing it together as he went.

And I think his reading would have worked in the same way, rather than this idea that every 'component' has to be in place so that everything is taught and then constructed, not explored and deduced - I'm sure you'll all shout me down and say 'that's bad reading' but for ds3 it would have been a better way in, and then the phonics could have been filled in.

So he was able to do all those calculations in his head before reception, but never learned to read before school? My very logical ds loves any sort of system/pattern. So, even phonics learning was fun for him, since it was purely the way to help decode, which he was already doing, without strong backbone.

Sorry I still don't understand why you think he couldn't have more interesting books when learning phonics. Phonics doesn't mean a child can't have access to a wide range of books just that they won't be expected to read books beyond their current knowledge/skills totally independently.
With Look and Say early books gave a great deal of repetition and more difficult words can't be read totally independently ...

Just to add there are children in my class reading Dahl, Simon, Cresswell, Rowling etc but will continue to learn phonics for five more years ...

Same here - as do lots of schools. Puzzled by the posts about dcs having to do 'another' year of phonics - unless those schools stop.teaching spelling in Y2?

Actually, some schools do, don't they - and think that sending spelling lists home for the next 5 years is 'teaching' spellingt. .

spellingt???!!!

look, I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything - I know from previous postings how futile that can be.

I am adding in a perspective from my own child. I have no axe to grind, I've seen phonics working well and badly. I've seen other methods working well, and less well. All my kids can now read.

But I do think it's important for phonics advocates to acknowledge that it doesn't have a 100% success rate. Ds3 is a quirky boy, and I do think it was the wrong approach for him.

mrz- I'm sure you do have children reading those excellent books. But they weren't the first books those children read, and they didn't start reading them in the first stages of phonics, and ds3 needed reading to have a purpose, not be just learning sounds and then reading tedious books he didn't want to read. He just couldn't see the point.

Irvine - that is exactly right - he had no interest in learning to read before school, and I didn't teach him maths, but he just has a very strong concept of numbers and how they relate to each other, and we realised he could do this through general conversation.

LilyBolero The problem is simply that your anecdote points mostly about poor teaching for your child - yet you're saying phonics rather than the teaching.

Reception DD's reading of the tedious 'learning to read' books is five minutes a week, that's it, not enough to get bored, enough to validate that she can read all the words and move on to reading other stuff that she enjoys and can show the point of reading. If that's text skype messages, or more interesting books, or magazines, or apps or whatever.

Pretty much the first books DD read outside of the school text things were Dahl, but by the time she started reading them, she'd read lots of other text, just not books and she was pretty slow about it.

Yes, because obviously you can diagnose better based on a few posts on the Internet, better than his parent who's watched him through 2 years of school, struggled with him, and seen his teachers try everything whilst having to continue with phonics.

Honestly, it's not poor teaching, however badly I've explained him, and I constantly find it amazing that people will always revert to 'poor teaching' accusation rather than acknowledging any possibility that phonics is not always the best approach.

So, how did he managed to learn to read in the end?
I agree, other ways can work for some children, since I know first hand. But learning phonics later didn't have any negative effect on my ds.
I don't think learn to read only by memory won't work in the long run. Children encounter more and more unfamiliar words as they grow. So whatever other ways of reading + solid knowledge of phonics is the best asset for children, IMO. And it does help with spelling massively.

But nothing you've said in any of your posts points to phonics being the issue. It all points to the teaching of phonics that your children have had.

Is there something that you have missed out?

Surely people don't just stick to the reading books they get from school, do they? We get loads out of the library.

RiverTam - it's that point of engagement when they start school though, if they are disengaged there, that's a big part of their learning time that is negative.

I don't really want to hijack this thread, and make it 'all about me', I'm not seeking answers to why ds3 struggled, but I do think it's possible to blindly believe in phonics for everyone. I know from the children I work with that a different approach from the 'favoured' one (in every area) can for the odd child make a massive difference.

How did ds3 learn to read in the end? I think he just learned enough words by memory to enable him to access other books, and the the phonics became a little more interesting because he was reading things that interested him, like history books and atlases, but he still hates the whole concept of phonics - he much prefers the overall picture (in everything, not just reading). Doesn't like breaking things down at all.

I'm also not saying that a child like him shouldn't learn phonics - just that he needed to be hooked into the idea of reading a different way, because once he's interested, he is like lightning, but when he's not interested he is on a different planet. And learning lots of different sounds was never going to grab his attention. So for him - a more 'Peter and Jane' type approach to start with, then feed the phonics in, would have been ideal.