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When is the phonics check please?

184 replies

EarthboundMisfit · 12/06/2016 20:58

It must be soon, right? Is there a specific timeframe in which schools have to do it?

Thanks.

OP posts:
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kesstrel · 13/06/2016 17:42

Because they will then need to disregard this as they get older as it has no bearing on reality.

I don't agree. Children's books are full of characters with made-up "pseudoword" names, from the Jabberwock to many of Roald Dahl's characters, and many more. Not only will they not need to disregard it, they shouldn't do so, not if they do any fiction reading. Often the sounds and syllables of the made-up name are deliberately chosen by the author to contribute to the meaning of the text.

TeenAndTween · 13/06/2016 17:46

Why is my child's class time wasted by preparing for a phonics check? Why is time being wasted teaching him about pseudo words purely for a screening check?

I don't know. Smile Maybe ask your school why they have such a low level of confidence in how they have taught phonics / reading that they are having to spend time preparing children for a quick read of a few words some of which they will know and some they won't, but which if they have been taught to decode properly shouldn't faze them?

TeenAndTween · 13/06/2016 17:50

So he got the phonics bit right but thought it wasn't a word as he didn't know it.

Your DS needs to learn that he won't know every word before he reads it.

Who is making your DS do online tests anyway? It shouldn't be necessary if he has been properly taught...

The screening check doesn't ask them if something is a proper word or not. It tells them which are real words (which they may or may not have already come across) and which are alien names. So your computer thing is testing something that the screening check doesn't require.

kesstrel · 13/06/2016 17:59

Why is my child's class time wasted by preparing for a phonics check? Why is time being wasted teaching him about pseudo words purely for a screening check?

Well, as I said above, it's a good idea for children to understand that they will encounter many words in their future reading that are unfamiliar to them. However, beyond that, if time is being wasted teaching pseudo-words, then that is down to a mistaken approach on the part of your school's teachers and head-teachers. Schools that use a good phonics programme and ensure their teachers can teach phonics well, with appropriate resources, do not resort to such time-wasting nonsense.

Phonics was only introduced to our schools about 10 years ago, and there was initially a great deal of resistance to it from many teachers and headteachers. The government had to force the university departments who train our teachers to add it to their curriculum, and some of them continue to disparage it and to teach outdated methods. So it's not that surprising that some schools still don't teach it well, and are susceptible to trying to fill in the gaps by silly policies like teaching pseudowords.

When the phonics check first was introduced, many literacy coordinators and teachers were surprised by how badly their children did, and re-thought their approach. Hopefully, at some point in the future, all schools will be teaching phonics well, and the phonics check will be discontinued.

user789653241 · 13/06/2016 18:13

I don't think learning to read pseudo words is waste of time. If dc knows phonics, they shouldn't have any trouble reading those. And by end of yr1, there are so many more words they don't know yet.
And also, if you read books like Roald Dahl, there are so many funny pseudo words, it makes reading even more enjoyable.

Believeitornot · 13/06/2016 18:26

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across very well.

He was doing the online tests for homework, which I stopped after ten minutes when it was asking him to identify words as real - which he had written off as "alien" because, even though I heard him sound them out correctly , he thought they weren't "real".

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 13/06/2016 18:28

The treasure or trash style online games, which sounds like what you've used pre-date the phonics test. They'd still exist if the phonics test didn't.

You are right about the scoring of them. They definitely score vocab rather than phonic knowledge. Hopefully that's something that most teachers should be aware of.

It doesn't have anything to do with the test though as they don't have to decide whether the words are real or not so it shouldn't lead to confusion or having to unteach stuff in the future.

There really isn't any benefit to practicing for this test. Why so many schools do is a bit of a mystery.

user789653241 · 13/06/2016 18:33

The online test doesn't sound right at all. For yr1 children most real words are still alien words! Stupid test.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 13/06/2016 18:36

It's my main bugbear with phonics play, but I can't see how else you could get it to work other than using voice recognition software.

Believeitornot · 13/06/2016 18:44

Ok so maybe it is the online thing he was doing which enraged me and put me against the idea of the screen...

But I still don't like the idea of so much testing at school and at a young age. It is quite depressing.

The sad thing is I love phonics as a method and it has really helped him learn to read. We read a lot at home and it gives us structure when we hit words he isn't sure about. As he learns more he gets ever more fluent. The screen seems like a distraction to me.

I did write a note in his homework book and his teacher has now included a printout explaining the screening Blush (I've just seen it now I'm home!)

Believeitornot · 13/06/2016 18:45

We aren't doing any practise for the test at home despite what the teachers are asking for

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 13/06/2016 18:50

I honestly don't think the practicing is necessary. I think the number of graphemes that are on the test is fewer than the number set out in Letters and Sounds and any child that is used to using phonics to sound out unknown words should just read straight through them without too much issue. Certainly not enough of an issue to get 8 or so wrong.

user789653241 · 13/06/2016 18:54

Not practicing- that's the whole point of the test, IMO. Screen the children, check to see who hasn't got it, find out which children need some sort of intervention. No need to worry for children who is doing fine.

mrz · 13/06/2016 19:01

Children shouldn't be taught it. There is no need if they are being taught phonics well. The fact that some schoops think it's necessary suggest there is a problem with teacher knowledge ...perhaps quality training is needed.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 13/06/2016 19:06

Last time I suggested something similar, it was suggested that there was no evidence that was necessary, mrz. Every teacher in the country knows exactly what they are doing.

mrz · 13/06/2016 19:19

Parents being asked to practise nonsense words is evidence

TeenAndTween · 13/06/2016 19:25

Believe re 'too much testing'

You may or may not be right, but the phonics screening check shouldn't be lumped in with for example y2 SATs.

The screening check should be a positive / not noticed part of the day.

  • it is only 5 minutes (so no time at all out of a school day)
  • they get 1-1 time with the teacher (which most children enjoy)
  • they are used to getting 1-1 time with adults so it is not out of the norm
  • they may get a sticker (which many 6 year olds also enjoy)
  • they aren't told results there and then (so nothing to 'fail')

Any competent teacher will be doing checks on what their children can or can't do to inform their teaching. The screening test is just a standardised way of doing a phonics check (and needed because a significant minority of schools are still failing to teach phonics effectively)

EarthboundMisfit · 13/06/2016 19:40

My DS did get a sticker...he loved it. His brother was most put out that he has to wait until tomorrow.

OP posts:
HarveySchlumpfenburger · 13/06/2016 19:56

That's what I'd have said, but I couldn't really be bothered to argue the point. MN and twitter provide ample evidence of teachers not really understanding the point of the check or the check itself.

In terms of the test being used to judge teaching, I don't think that was intended. It was an unfortunate side effect. I suspect the number of children not meeting the standard in the pilot or the first year came as a bit of a surprise. It wasn't supposed to be that high. It's still slightly on the low side IMO and I'm not sure there's any explanation other than teaching.

Believeitornot · 13/06/2016 20:28

The test/screen will be used to judge teaching because the results are collated. This will be why teachers will want to try and get parents to practice as home. I was a governor and know that this features on the dash board of success as I like to call it.

If it were a simple tool for teachers to use to screen children then fair enough. But it is a test and measure for politicians by any other name.

mrz · 13/06/2016 20:32

The results are collected but aren't used to compare teachers or schools.

MrsPear · 13/06/2016 20:40

Can someone please explain how this test is carried out? Is one on one in a quiet room with the child reading a list of "words"?
I am just trying to figure out how ds1 with hearing loss would complete it.
The school has not even mentioned any tests Confused

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 13/06/2016 20:41

But if teachers are teaching phonics well, then it isn't an issue. The results will speak for themselves. They don't need to do anything extra.

If they're having to spend lots of time practising for the test then there is something wrong. Something that wasn't previously fixed by being held accountable to the HT and governors.

Believeitornot · 13/06/2016 20:44

Ok, I will slightly revise my judgement then....

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 13/06/2016 20:46

It's 1:1 and in a separate room. The child will be given a booklet with the words in (4 on a page). At the start of each page the child will be told whether the words on that page are real words or non-real (alien) words.

Are there any specific problems you think his hearing loss might cause?

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