Does it sound like i should take DS out of school?

[RudeElf]

And home educate?

For background, this is most recent thread i posted about him http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2552334-6yo-spent-the-day-under-coats-in-school here

Things at home have been really good. He very rarely loses temper and i can bring him back round/calm him within seconds.

However i had parent teacher meeting yesterday and tbh i'm just gutted. Teacher says nothing has changed. He is spending lots of time in the bathroom or cloakroom. She says she initially tried to bring him back to classroom but she no longer tries as it ends up in a confrontation and battle of wills between her and DS. So she doesnt try. He is missing so much classwork because of this. He is on target for his numeracy but he is doing the year below work for literacy. He regularly refuses to co-operate with teacher/classroom assistant. He will start some set tasks and then suddenly refuse to do anymore and go off and play. (He does homework every night with me no problem) he was off sick yesterday and monday and she said the atmosphere in the classroom was so different. No-one was walking on eggshells afraid of setting him off and the children werent flinching incase he hurt them sad she did say the incidents of violence have really dropped but they are still occurring. (These are recorded in his daily book so i know they have reduced but still happening) if there is no change in april he will be referred to educational psychologist. (I dont know why this hasnt been done sooner. Issues have been going on since p1 and he is now p3) i have asked for him to be re-referred to the family support hub for the behavioural therapist sessions. These were happening weekly since july but are limited with how many sessions can be given so ended a few weeks ago. Therapist advised me to re-refer. I have also applied through GP for referral to paediatrician for assessment of ADHD.

I am worried that DS will not be allowed/able to progress to P4 in september and will have to remain back a year with this teacher who, honestly, i think hasnt a clue what to do with him. The teacher he would be going to in P4 (unless they change them around again!) taught him for p2 and she was fantastic, he made real progress with her but that all went to pot when he started P3. I really think it would be detrimental for DS to be with this current teacher for another year. But i think that right now it looks like he wont be capable of P4 in september. I am working really hard with him at home with reading and writing and at home he is great, he loves it but at school he is unco-operative.

I am starting to think i should take him out of school and homeschool. If even for a year or two to bring him to a level where he can manage at the right level for his age and then he can go back to school. Is that stupid? Would i be messing him up even more by taking him away from his friends? Would he think he was being punished for being bold or not smart enough? He already knows he is doing the P2 work in school.

Sorry if this is all a ramble.

I am in county down.

Thanks for that link and advice carrie

Hi Rudelf,

I really feel for your DS. I am a p3 teacher myself (in Scotland so not sure if the ages match up).

A couple of questions for you. Did these behaviours begin just in P3 or were they prevalent before? You mentioned his P2 teacher being great. Did he get on with her? It sounds like she understood him well. Most importantly, does he feel respected by his teacher?

Many people feel it's the other way round that the children must respect their teacher but in my experience, if you as a teacher do not respect the children in your class then you're going to have a hard year. Children need to feel listened to. I wonder if this could be a factor? Especially if your child does have, as suspected, some form of behavioural or emotional needs.

On the topic of homeschool, I will offer no advice (I am highly opinionated on the subject but won't get into it here).

My suspicions are that the teacher is simply not the right teacher for your son. S/he is not taking your sons needs into account (regardless of a diagnosis or not). IMO a diagnosis is simply a label; it cannot take the barriers away. Only professionals can work together to do this.

Oh dear, it does seem as if I'm rambling! Most importantly, what does your son say about the situation? Is he being treated fairly? Is he worried about getting into trouble or being yelled at? Is his work being adapted for him?

Fingers crossed for a happy outcome

The problems were apparent in P1, however at the time his teacher and I put it down to him being one of the youngest in the class. (He is a late may birthday and in NI our age cut off is 30th June) other than the speech issues and his toileting issues there were no concerns with his progress in school. He was managing the work and was co-operative with the teacher and classroom assistant. The concerns were his behaviour; snatching off other children, temper tantrums, not willing to share, melt downs, lashing out at other children. When he moved to P2 it was more apparent he wasnt maturing like his peers. He was still having the behavioural issues and so his teacher suggested having him referred through ASCET for a behaviour support therapist. This took time to be put in place so it began in july of last year (he finished P2 in june). He loved his p2 teacher and it was very clear in the way she talked that she liked him too. She was full of praise for his good qualities and would tell me stories of how polite he was to X teacher and how funny he was when he told her such and such story. He has a real obsession with tidying up in the classroom and the teacher used that as rewards for him. It was working and he was meeting some (not all) of his targets on the IEP.

In P3 he got much worse. Meltdowns every day, kicking over chairs, standing on tables, hiding under tables, hurting other children, screaming back at teacher when disciplined. His P2 teacher had given him strategies like smelling the cake and blowing out the candles and counting to ten and this was working, we used it at home too. So i told this to the P3 teacher and she seemed keen but it has been a looong time since ive heard it mentioned. His p3 teacher introduced a quiet corner which was a table and seat near her desk where he could go if he needed to calm down. It was initially successful but then she introduced a screen round it because DS was still engaging with other children when he was at the quiet corner and Ds would then stand on the chair or table to peek up and down over the top of the screen. Then it became apparent the quiet corner was being used as a punishment and of course he hated it then so it isnt used anymore by him. Other children still use it.

I dont ask DS how he feels about school, i only know what he offers up and what i see. He hates going in in the mornings, he will often ignore the teacher when she greets him in the morning and he will put his head down and go straight to the cloakroom. However i have also seen her ignore him when he approaches her to say hello. This isnt specific to him i have seen her ignore other children and she has broken off mid conversation with me a few times and run off to speak to someone else so i think that is just her way.

Wrt class work he has been put back onto the P2 work for literacy. But his numeracy is ok so he is with his peers for that work. He knows he is doing the class belows work and complains about it but at the same time says he cant do the harder work. He has taken to refusing to do work and will get up and go and play or tidy up/organise something. The teacher leaves him to it now. She showed me his latest tests that were completed over 4 days. The start of the numeracy test was very good, he was getting marks like 11/12 or 8/10. He did this for the first 6/7 pages and then the test remained incomplete from that point onwards. She said he just point blank refused to do it.

I haven't read the full thread. But my DS was very uncomfortable at school, he used to sit in assembly with his hands over his ears, he said it was too noisy (the teachers insisted he was just being naughty and didn't want to sit down )

Took him out nearly a year ago and haven't looked back. He's still a quirky little dude :o I am pretty certain he has ASD (I have it) but he is so much happier. He was in speech therapy for years, but within 3 months of coming out of school he was discharged as he'd suddenly made astronomical progress. Because he was happy and safe (and nobody was mimicking him as they did at school - another thing the school refused to address)

We tried so hard to make DS enjoy school, we went to (and initiated) all the meetings, did reward charts, welcomed the family outreach person, all of that. But we just reached the 'line in the sand' and realised that he just wasn't meant to be there. His mental health was suffering dramatically but I've got my happy little boy back now. He's loving all the work we are doing - that he couldn't access in school because he couldn't read or speak then. Now he's got lots of friends of all ages who accept him for who he is, he takes part in lots of activities and enjoys them. Home ed was 100% the right thing for him.

fuzzipig that has made me cry. Thanks for sharing that. My protective mother instinct just wants to keep him at home and let him be him without the stress of having to stifle all those 'bad' impulses he isnt allowed to do in school. He is stressed. Very much so and i think if that was me every day going to work i would have a breakdown. I dont know what to do for best.

Oh Rude I'm sorry.

That's an interesting point though. I think as an adult if you were stressed at work, you would want to get out and find another job. If you were very stressed and struggling with your mental health you would take sick leave. So it makes total sense to do the same for your DS. He would just be educated in a different way. Doesn't mean no school ever, just means taking a break. A sabbatical. :)

It's funny, I thought taking him (and his sister) out of school was some massive big deal. But it's not really. They learn loads. They socialise (a HUGE amount). They just... don't go to school and do it all in one place with one lot of children. It's really surprised me how it's totally different, and yet not different at all really. I'm waffling. But what I'm trying to say is, it seems like a terrifying step, but in many ways it just isn't. IYSWIM.

Yes it feels like a massive decision and i think i am imagining the responses of everyone around me if i told them. I dont know anyone who home educates, as far as i know it isnt common round here. I have joined the NI home education group and am meeting a lady next week to have a chat and ask any questions.

I've just had a call from the autism team saying that his referral has arrived with them but actually they shouldnt accept it because it was made by me. Apparently they are supposed to be filled in by the Gp. When i went to the GP he didnt even ask to see my son, he handed me the form and said "fill that in then bring it back for me to sign it" which i did. She said she will accept it to save me going back through the whole process again and she said it was far more comprehensive than any they get from the GPs so i'm actually glad it was me filling it in and putting in all the supporting evidence, there is no way my Gp would have done that. She has referred him on to the community paediatrician but couldnt give a timescale for when he will be seen.

RudeElf that sounds like good progress. Ds is in P3 and has just began his autism assessment but it takes quite a while. The waiting list is about 6 months.

Dd has been assessed and the support from the Autism intervention team in school has been great.

RudeElf that sounds like a step in the right direction. DS was hurried through his assessment, due to his having been excluded from school for two days, so it only took 7 months from seeing the community paediatrician to his diagnosis. That's apparently quick for round us.

Fingers crossed you have a fabulous group of professionals to help you understand what's going on for DS. In our experience, while it doesn't fix anything, it does at least give you some clues as to what might help.

RudeElf hopefully this is good news for your Ds www.bbc.co.uk/news/northern_ireland

Thank you both, yes that sounds like it might speed things up a bit. Heres hoping anyway.

Good luck.

Thanks irvine.

Both our kids home edded. One chose to go to secondary and is now doing a levels.The other is 8. Neither are 'stupid'.I wish you both luck as it is tricky.We have managed on one wage so i imagine being a single parent v hard unless you have a skill that can be utilised from home.

Thanks dooby i should clarify that i never intended to imply that home educated DC are stupid. What i meant was that would my DC think that being taken out of school meant he was too stupid for school. It really wasnt a comment on home educating at all, just a fear of how DS might interpret that decision.

S'ok Rude. My 8 year old has v low self esteem. Has improved since he has been home edded. I wish you both well.It is very tough when your child dosen't fit the mould and is unhappy.

About the idea that your son might think he has been taken out of school because he is too stupid for school - why would that even cross his mind? Unless you or someone else says that to him, or implies it, I can't imagine it would occur to him.

After all, that isn't the actual reason you'd do it, is it? Isn't the reason because he is so unhappy at school? If you just tell him so, I should think he'd take that at face value. "I see how unhappy you sometimes are at school, and I am taking you out because I hope you'll like home education better. Let's try this for a while and see whether it makes you happier."

That is a really good message for him to hear, I think. Whether you are right or wrong to try home education, the message remains. He will know that what matters most to you is his happiness, and that you are doing everything in your power to make him happy.

why would that even cross his mind?

Because he already knows he is doing the year below work for literacy and that he cant read like his friends can.

And I should say, he is bothered by it despite me pitching it at him as having more talent in other areas than his friends and how everyone is great at some things but those things arent always taught in school.

Mmm yes, I can see how that's a problem. It's a rare child who wouldn't be bothered by that. But maybe it's all the more reason to remove him from an environment in which so much preference is given to certain subjects that he doesn't see his strong points being valued.

My daughter's development is several years delayed. However, she doesn't know which year group she'd be in for literacy, or that she can't read or write as well as other children her age. One day, probably soon, she will glimpse that fact and it may dismay her briefly. But I doubt it will have any greater significance to her than the fact that one of her friends is an exceptionally good tree-climber, or that others are bilingual, or that she herself has a gift for zany inventions.

She's never had reason to believe she is stupid. That would be fairly unimaginable in a mainstream classroom, I think: a nine-year-old who has the academic attainment of a five-year-old but who doesn't think she is stupid.