Does it sound like i should take DS out of school?

[RudeElf]

And home educate?

For background, this is most recent thread i posted about him http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2552334-6yo-spent-the-day-under-coats-in-school here

Things at home have been really good. He very rarely loses temper and i can bring him back round/calm him within seconds.

However i had parent teacher meeting yesterday and tbh i'm just gutted. Teacher says nothing has changed. He is spending lots of time in the bathroom or cloakroom. She says she initially tried to bring him back to classroom but she no longer tries as it ends up in a confrontation and battle of wills between her and DS. So she doesnt try. He is missing so much classwork because of this. He is on target for his numeracy but he is doing the year below work for literacy. He regularly refuses to co-operate with teacher/classroom assistant. He will start some set tasks and then suddenly refuse to do anymore and go off and play. (He does homework every night with me no problem) he was off sick yesterday and monday and she said the atmosphere in the classroom was so different. No-one was walking on eggshells afraid of setting him off and the children werent flinching incase he hurt them sad she did say the incidents of violence have really dropped but they are still occurring. (These are recorded in his daily book so i know they have reduced but still happening) if there is no change in april he will be referred to educational psychologist. (I dont know why this hasnt been done sooner. Issues have been going on since p1 and he is now p3) i have asked for him to be re-referred to the family support hub for the behavioural therapist sessions. These were happening weekly since july but are limited with how many sessions can be given so ended a few weeks ago. Therapist advised me to re-refer. I have also applied through GP for referral to paediatrician for assessment of ADHD.

I am worried that DS will not be allowed/able to progress to P4 in september and will have to remain back a year with this teacher who, honestly, i think hasnt a clue what to do with him. The teacher he would be going to in P4 (unless they change them around again!) taught him for p2 and she was fantastic, he made real progress with her but that all went to pot when he started P3. I really think it would be detrimental for DS to be with this current teacher for another year. But i think that right now it looks like he wont be capable of P4 in september. I am working really hard with him at home with reading and writing and at home he is great, he loves it but at school he is unco-operative.

I am starting to think i should take him out of school and homeschool. If even for a year or two to bring him to a level where he can manage at the right level for his age and then he can go back to school. Is that stupid? Would i be messing him up even more by taking him away from his friends? Would he think he was being punished for being bold or not smart enough? He already knows he is doing the P2 work in school.

Sorry if this is all a ramble.

He is 6 however maturity wise he is around 4. He is very immature.

Have you asked the GP for a referral for a general health assessment?

No, what would this mean? I (naively?) assumed the referral to paediatrician for ADHD assessment would investigate all these issues? They were all listed on the referral form with supporting evidence from GP, social services, behavioural therapist and the class teacher.

All keys are now with me all the time. I sleep with them under my pillow.

Did SALT ever give any diagnosis of what the issue was/where he has problems

No they just prescribed exercises for us to do at home and when she discharged him she said the remaining issues will resolves themselves both with time and when his adult teeth come down fully. He has made good progress with his speech. All his words are clear now whereas at age 4 he was very hard to make out.

We have a lego-based reward system with DS to get through the things we need to at home, including for drinks as DS can be prone to constipation. Touch wood, that seems to have upped his liquids intake and the problem seems to be sorted.

Good idea, will try something like that. He is very money oriented so maybe that would work as he isnt into lego.

We are in NI. Thanks cestlavie

I am so sorry and angry for your son newlife this is what worries me. If he stays in school will he just be the naughty boy that no-one has time to deal with? He is entitled to an education. Not just left in the bathroom because no-one knows what to do with him.

NewLife hope your DS is more settled now.

DS has asperger's type autism, and was diagnosed at 5yo with help from the school. He does get lots of support at school (not quite right yet, but that's another story). It is not the case that schools/councils never do anything. But parents do have to challenge and fight way too often sometimes for it to happen.

Hard cash is fine, and would probably work fine for DS but we didn't want it to lead to a battle about whether he was allowed to spend it on x,y,z inappropriate item .

DS's SALT assessments have been very different, as they were part of a multi-disciplinary assessment that led to his autism/asperger's diagnosis. His speech is fine, and his vocabulary advanced for his age in some ways. But he has a very limited vocabulary around emotions and feelings.

Hopefully all of these kind of aspects will be picked up when your assessment comes through. It might mean that your DS needs further SALT but with a different focus (e.g. our DS needs support with developing social skills, as they don't come naturally to him).

I have experience of a child soiling at this age. Movicol helped until he was mature enough to understand that withholding his stools wasn't a battle he would win. Like your ds, mine wouldn't take the movicol. I adopted ninja stealth tactics to get a dose in every morning in the milk that went on his breakfast cereal (if I remember correctly each sachet needs to be mixed with 67.5ml water but milk works too) and in a cup of milk I gave him before bed. He never figured it out (and he has an otherwise hugely sensitive palate).

IsItMe

I'm sorry, huge apologies I wasn't really clear.
I do know that some councils are great, but unfortunately ours wasn't.
We banged our fists on tables in the end and they still did nothing. It started to be a noticeable problem during y1 and he was still "a naughty lad" during his AS level.

OP, if you feel you aren't getting anywhere despite pushing, then I would H.ed if I were you.
We H.ed dd for a completely different reason and it broke my heart to know that ds could have had this opportunity if only we'd known.
I know it isn't for everybody and many wouldn't choose to H.ed but when your child isn't happy or reaching their potential/ accessing support that is vital, then you don't have much choice.
What is also great about H.ed is it doesn't have to be for ever, our dd is at school now and loves it.
If it doesn't work out long term, we would H.ed again without doubt.

Thanks kippery i'll have to get more sneaky. DS is a breakfast refuser other than one of those yoghurt drinks so i dont think i will be able to sneak it into that but maybe other drinks during the day.

I'm going to see the HT and put all this too her and ask that it is addressed now, and not in april. I'm saying i'm giving it til june to decide about HE but of course that depends on there being an immediate improvement in what is happening in class. He cant stay in the bathroom for 5 months.

Am I the only parent who is glad its mid term next week as I know i wont have a run down of "what he did today" at the end of each day?

Rude

I wouldn't tell the school you are thinking of H.ed, for the simple reason they may hold back even longer if they think you will receive funding and then H.ed anyway.
Also, I have heard from some (but not my experience) that some LA's get confused when you mention H.ed especially wrt allocation of spaces, funding, etc.
I would also ask any other parents you know who did get the diagnosis/ support they needed, how long it took.
You can find out so much from asking around parents from other schools too.
E.g our council were notorious for not helping, parents paid privately for diagnosis and one school in the area was well known and still is the recommended primary wrt support for sn.

Thanks new i hadnt considered that. Tbh i think his teacher would be over the moon if i said i was thinking of HEing him. I'll hold back on telling them this and just push for the support.

Oh and will also talk to friends. I dont think i know anyone who has gone through it but i can ask.

New no need to apologise. I'm probably a bit rabid evangelical as we're going through it with DS at the moment. Hard to turn fight mode off!

It is an incredibly difficult situation for the school as well. No funding. Keeping the other children safe and lack of a one to one when it is probs what your child needs. What are they supposed to do? There are 30 children, whose parents complain about them getting hurt, who need educating, the environment is what it is. I would push for diagnosis and then think about special schools or small class school. Your child has many complex needs which, I am sorry, cannot be meet by either you or the school in the current situation. I would be so far from beo g concerned about him falling behind at the moment. It is displaced. It's his emotional, social
And behavioural well-being that needs attention.

poppy there is funding, just not an infinite amount. It sounds like OP's DS should be a priority for accessing what funding is available.

And what the school are supposed to do is to escalate beyond an IEP to a statement when the needs exceed what they can manage within their own resources. They have not even got an Ed Psych in yet.

That is what is making me angry at them on behalf of OP and her son. The school can and should be doing more to support them in accessing what he needs.

It is an incredibly difficult situation for the school as well. No funding. Keeping the other children safe and lack of a one to one when it is probs what your child needs. What are they supposed to do? There are 30 children, whose parents complain about them getting hurt, who need educating, the environment is what it is

Please believe me when i say i am well aware of this. I certainly dont think the school are just sitting twiddling their thumbs while he is in the bathroom. But i saw how much my DS progressed last year and how much he has regressed (and developed new behaviours) this school year and going by my experiences of this teacher with my other DS i know there is more that can be done. I do think the teacher needs more support than she is getting with this. I am not the HT or the SENCO who should have experience of this and know what needs to happen. These are people with years of combined experience in education and SEN. If they were telling me there is nothing to be done and he needs to leave then that's one thing but as it stands none of that has happened, i havent even spoken to any of them regarding this. It has always been the class teacher. Who also isnt telling me he needs to leave, although i'm sure she wishes he would.

There is no extra funding for this child and IEPs do not exist any longer. The school provided out of their budget but budgets keep getting cut. It is nay on impossible to get any money to support children anymore. Many schools struggle to give each class a TA. Believe me, if they had the money they would use it to help an unsatisfactory situation. If you want the money, you need to push and push to open an EHCP for him.

From friends who have taken kids out to HE, and then tried to seek advice/diagnosis/ed psych support, this is much easier to get in school. That doesn't mean keep your son in a hopeless setting for ever, but press hard for the ed psych referral. There's no way they should be waiting until April to book one as there will be a delay. He needs one now and keep asking for it.

There is no extra funding for this child and IEPs do not exist any longer.

I signed one two weeks ago.

Thanks ziggy, yes i am going to push for the ed psych ASAP.

You may have. I still use them, or what I call them, legally they don't exist and there is nothing to replace them. It's just an internal SEN record.

I did. So this piece of paper with a SEN level rating on it means jack shit? Where are they taking this level from? Who is assessing him as having this level that means nothing?

I don't know but there is a difference between identifying a kid needs help and a Edpsyc and a paediatrician actually opening an EHCP. They are the only ones who can in this instance not even SALT, could have and speech and language is not an SEN record.

Wow! It's pretty shit of his teacher to be talking about how the atmosphere of the class improves when he isn't there, even if it's true. What the hell are you supposed to do with that information other than feel crap about it?

In your shoes I would definitely home-school. It sounds like it would be great for your DS. Even as a trainee teacher I firmly believe that mainstream schooling does not suit every child and is not the be all and end all.

IEPs do exist in NI but additional support is virtually non existant! To get a child through to stage 5 takes years and is sadly increasingly reliant on knowing what to write on forns and on building up files of evidence! Very sad situation.

This makes me so angry. There is no way the teacher should make you feel guilty because your son is being unsupported in school particularly when it doesn't sound as if they have been of much help in seeking that support. Yes, it is difficult and they might not have succeeded but to not even try! Your child has as much right to an education as any other child in that class. It might be that he would be better off in a specialist setting but he still has a right to an education and you should not be pressurised into home education out of guilt. I would advice making a parental application for an EHCP plan asap. You sound to have more than sufficient evidence to warrant an application. It might be that this could give sufficient support for him to thrive in mainstream or it might be that this will open the door to a specialist setting. Home education, may be good for your son, but it is not the only option.

Rudeelf IEP's are still used in Northern Ireland and this is the guide to SEN in NI www.belb.org.uk/Documents/604.pdf education and library boards are now part of the education authority but the stages etc are the same.

What you need to say to the HT in your email is something along the lines of "I request a meeting with yourself, Senco, class teacher as Ds is not achieving his full potential and needs support to access the full curriculum. Then detail dates what happened, what teacher said etc

I wouldn't HE their is a wealth of help and support in NI in school once you actually get access to it but it is all very school based.

I would also go to GP request assessment by Occupational therapist in the meantime and also phone Paediatricians secretary and explain not coping at school and ask to be put on cancellation list for appointment.

We don't have ECHP in Northern Ireland.

Rudeelf what county are you in?