Do you think that primary teachers should have a degree?

[Rumpel]

I am relying on the wealth of experience and strong opinions of all you Mnetters out there to discuss this topic so that I can see how the general opinion lies. TIA

Correction "that wasn't on the curriculum"

Bobo what are you saying was not on the curriculum. I am reading it that you are saying science / physics was not taught as well. You're not being very clear.

I've just read what you wrote twice Bobo & I read it as you saying that science wasn't on the curriculum. What did you mean if not that?

?

SirChenjin
No they don't. Teachers in Academies in England don't have to have one and I think free schools are the same. I know a boarding school where someone was teaching SEN pupils and she previously had no experience at all other than being a parent.
HLTAs are allowed to teach now but do not have there own class full time. They may have a regular class to teach each week for agreed lessons and are sometimes asked to teach instead of supply teachers. Sometimes it is difficult to get supply and sometimes it is financial as HLTA are paid a lot less. You don't have to have a degree to be a HLTA most people have a Level 3 or 4 in childcare or a Diploma and lots of experience. They then have to be assessed and prove through Tasks that they are capable. An assessor comes and marks a portfolio and speak to staff and the Headteacher.

All teachers in state maintained schools in England need a degree and QTS. This excludes free schools, academies, independent schools, HLTAs, cover supervisors, peripatetic teachers and many PPA cover teachers. Crazy system!

Out of interest, which teacher would you prefer for your child.

Teacher A: in their mid 40s, 20 years experience of working in schools, does not have QTS but has fantastic general knowledge and a BSc in chemistry and physics.

Teacher B: in their early 20s, has taught for two years after getting QTS. Has poor general knowledge and will often ask Teacher A things about the topics they are teaching because she doesn't know.

Both are equally skilled in terms of managing the class and are liked by the children. They are firm but fair.

If teacher A has been teaching in a mainstream school for 20 years they will have QTS - teaching has been a graduate profession since early 80s.

mrz they haven't been a teacher for 20 years, they are now a teacher at an academy and have been for about 5 years.

As a teacher, would you prefer

Parent A - that trusted that as you had been employed by the school that you were a professional doing your job or

Parent B - who discussed perceived minutiae about you on mumsnet?

Haha, good one Iguana

Hi all,

Thanks for your comments and views. I ask because yes it is a requirement up here in Scotland that all teachers have a degree. However, in other countries it is not. I agree that the general consensus of the public is that as teaching is a professional career then teachers should have a degree. I do not agree that being academic and having a degree makes a good teacher. I think one of the most important skills to bring to teaching in an effective manner is enthusiasm and I also think that excellent social skills is a fundamental requirement as you need to be able to deal with children, parents/carers and colleagues from all walks of life.
Primary teaching does cover a huge range of subjects and is a very hard job and although studying for an educational degree straight from school can give you the strategies to teach I personally think that having a bit of life experience behind you and being more mature gives you a better chance of sticking with the profession and greater all round skills to be a more effective teacher. I ask because due to the current teaching recruitment crisis the education department may need to rethink their recruiting strategies. Furthermore, some people have experience and other qualifications which outperform or are equivalent to an actual degree but have been rejected from teaching and this policy is being questioned at the moment.
Thanks again.

IMHO I agree that there are plenty of people out there with degrees whose level of intelligence is questionable in terms of handling real life situations and basic English/maths skills. Empathy is a huge part of being able to teach well and this is not something which can be taught.

In terms of my original post - I mean a degree in any subject - not education specifically.

As has been mentioned primary teachers have to teach a wide spectrum of subjects and to have teaching staff specialised in each subject area would be detrimental IMO. It is incredibly important that staff get to know their children in primary school and if staff are constantly rotating this is impossible to do. Young children may need help with toileting, speech and other areas. Children need to feel comfortable enough to be able to approach staff and staff need to be able to get to know children so that they can pick up on any 'issues' which may be affecting the children and deal with this appropriately. Stability is a must for young children.

Secondary school of course need subject specific teachers.

FWIW I would far rather my own children were taught by an enthusiastic, well educated (in a real world/life skills way) teacher, with empathy and enthusiasm who thinks outside the box than an academically successful teacher who cannot convey their knowledge in an appropriate manner.

No reason not to have enthusiasm, good social skills and a degree though.
If the degree requirement is dropped, I wonder what teaching would look like in ten years time.
OP private schools in Scotland can still employ non-GTC registered people if they want to (if this is something you're trying to do)

Yes, the children know who to pick when they need a bit of support, have wet themselves, are having a difficult time at home, can't unders and homework but don't always want to ask the class teacher and maybe just need a hug. Yes, we do give our children a hug and if we weren't allowed to I would leave. Giving a little hug to a child who has fallen over and is hurt, a child who mum has been really horrible to before school or the bolshi, new Yr 6 girl who comes and gives you a hug because you have given her a pack of art materials because she isn't able to come to after school club and really wants to.
It isn't all about academia you are quite right Rumpel. Scottish Education has always been valued and this is perhaps why. Do you still have Teaching Assistants/ Classroom Assistants? I know there was a big change a few years ago and many shires made them reapply for their jobs. I wonder why they don't have HLTAs as they don't have to teach but it gives TAs something to aim for. I felt I was getting a bit stale and I wanted a new challenge. This led to other qualifications and a different role for me.

Absolutely they should have a degree. I shows they understand how to study, structure ideas etc.

Rumple, I think it would be better for the department of education to look at the reasons why graduates don't want to be teachers rather than looking at lowering qualifications for entering teachers.
It's not a recruitment problem so much as a retention problem. There are thousands of excellent, trained graduate teachers with great classroom presence, empathy and extensive subject knowledge who have left because the job is so awful.

So does having a degree mean that teaching is a profession? Without one would teachers feel that they are unprofessional? Or should there be a requirement for secondary school teachers to have a degree in the subject they are teaching and not primary school teachers?

Ditsy4 - yes we have support for learning assistants SLAs and TAs.

Jellyfrizz - I am not saying that they should lower the qualifications for teachers at all. However, some people may come into it a bit later in life and have significant qualifications in other areas which may amount to a degree and I do not think that they should be excluded - as some posters have noted - plenty of degree level students do not have the basic skills needed to teach. Totally agree regarding the fact that the government should be researching why teachers are leaving - massive workload, changing goalposts, too much responsibility laid at the feet of teachers and not enough individual responsibility with regards to the students and carers. Too much emphasis placed on targets and not enough on individual goals and so it goes on.

Absolutely they should have a degree. I shows they understand how to study, structure ideas etc.

A (as in any) degree does not show this, IMO. Maybe 20-30 years ago it did, but not anymore.

I think you have a very idealistic view of degrees these days.

If it weren't for the cost, I think 95% (more, probably) of people could get a degree from somewhere in the UK.

Are any of you university lecturers? Can any of you comment on whether you think that students qualifying with degrees now should qualify in terms of English skills, overall intelligence etc etc or is it a case of making the bums on seats/figures add up?

Do you mean that a person with a degree should automatically be considered to have the required English skills and intelligence to teach?

If you do, then definitely not.

I mean do you think that some students should not qualify for their degree as their English skills/overall intelligence is not good enough? However, due to the fact that universities have to have a certain amount of bums on seats/financial resources then the students do qualify against the better judgement of some staff? Controversial 🤔😉

I do not mean exclusively to teaching degrees👍🏻

I'm not sure how a student would complete assignments and write a disertation if their English skills not a good standard.