Do you think that primary teachers should have a degree?

[Rumpel]

I am relying on the wealth of experience and strong opinions of all you Mnetters out there to discuss this topic so that I can see how the general opinion lies. TIA

I can see your arguement OB, but I wonder if it would be hard to measure enthusiasm, expertise and subject knowledge on the job? Would it be like an apprenticeship that could be done after A levels?

The latter. People are keen when they go into the job.

Improving pay is not a huge focus. If you tripled the pay you would attract people for the money. Improving the conditions is very important, and this requires quite a lot of investment, both financial and in terms of building up and maintaining more respect and trust.

My "the latter" aimed at Olly's "created the wrong education system".

Yes

I agree with Olly. Degrees for degrees' sake really don't mean anything any more. Specialist teacher training however is essential.

A colleague and friend is an outstanding teacher but has dyslexia. So often struggles with spelling.

How can you be an outstanding teacher if you cannot spell?

I don't think they need a degree but they do need to be able to teach maths reasonably well
I am still surprised that times tables aren't taught by rote in primary schools

Absolutely, basic spelling, grammar and maths skills are surely essential qualities in a primary teacher. I don't want to be correcting the teacher's corrections when my dc go to school!

kinkytoes mine are older teenagers + now and went to an outstanding primary. The spelling, grammar and basic maths skills of teachers who were then between 25 and 40 were shocking. Interestingly the young teachers trained in South Africa/Australia were much better educated and had a more can do attitude. The two teachers who trained as second careers and were English were much better too. There was a problem with the UK teacher training standards in the 70s/80s although I believe this has improved.

Kickassangel- that might have been the case years ago but ime most primary school watchers coming j to the profession have a subject degree followed by PGCE.

Dd's prep school had two much older teachers who had cert ed but they retired and were replaced with teachers with degrees and qts.

In both state and independent schools (independent easier to ascertain as many have qualifications displayed) I've been involved with use teachers with qts; the only non qualified teachers have been for specialist subjects such as sport and music.

Our two NQTs both did BEds

Perhaps it's a regional difference - university courses but lots of applicants from SCITT or BEd and many PGCE candidates who are entering teaching as second or third career ??

What is the view about teaching assistants? Should they also have a degree?

I can't see anyone with a degree choosing to make TAing a career. The wages are abysmal and it's a very low status job.

I say that as a former TA & HLTA (with a degree, though that's irrelevant)

It's up to the headteacher and governors of the school to decide the appropriate level of the people they employ, including the teaching assistants. And it's up to the headteacher with his/her SLT team to appraise, support and judge the competency of the staff at their school.

There are too many variables for some randoms from the Internet to make a judgement about what is (or is not) an appropriate level of education for staff at schools.

It's bizarre how people make sweeping assertions about entire schools where teaching is fabulous and appalling. Or countries. There is good and bad throughout. Some staff are suited to some types of school. Some are not. Some will be fabulous teachers with doctorates. Some will be utterly crap. Some will be inspirational despite minimal qualifications. Some will not. Some will be pretty poor in their first 2 years and then become amazing. Some will start off fabulous and then become poorer. Some will be amazing throughout. Some will be poor throughout.

Parents have such a limited view of the teaching of the teachers of their children. They have the second hand account of the view of a 10 year old. They see the homework and marking and that's it- directly.

Frankly, as a school leader, it's incredibly challenging to judge the competency of a member of staff - it's a very highly skilled job.

Gwen and story I know about the cert ed obviously as someone who had been teaching a long time. I know that the teachers I work with have degrees and PGCEs as we talk about it. I think when I first stated there was one woman with a cert ed. my own primary teachers had these too (I know because I did some voluntary work back there).
The only teachers I know without a degree teach at private school - none are over 58. One is an ex footballer who teaches PE, one has a degree in Classics and teaches English (her results are not great), one is an actress who teaches drama and the other was a maths professor who now teaches maths.

evidenceintopractice.wordpress.com/2015/12/30/theory-of-mind/

The best teacher I had taught Biology. In the 1970s. She wasn't qualified. It was the truth that no pupil had ever failed Biology O'Level. She was absolutely brilliant. It was a grammar school. She got into it because her husband taught at the boy's school. She wasn't QTS for sure and I don't think she had a degree. She didn't teach A'Level.

No, often the best teachers are those who have had another career before going into teaching.

One of my best teachers in junior school (back in the 1970's) had been an air stewardess before teaching. She was lovely and my reading really improved when I was in her class.

Beau QTS didn't exist in the 70s

Most definitely, yes. A degree is essential, but I also agree with the point that we should be looking at the actual training of our teachers. I did a PGCE in the 1980's and it certainly didn't teach me how to teach. I learned that 'on the job'. I'm still wondering, after all these years exactly what it did teach me! I walked into my first job with absolutely no clue how to teach children to read - which was a bit of a necessity as I'm Early Years!
I think that general knowledge is pretty poor amongst our NQTs. Memorably we had one who was doing a topic on Scott and had no idea which Pole was the Arctic or the Antarctic, or the differences between the two! She was an intelligent person, but her general knowledge was just so appalling!

Bobo

I am a qualified teacher, dyslexic, dyspraxic, other undiagnosed learning difficulties and not a GCSE to my name.

Most of my observations were outstanding, some were good and only one departmental was satisfactory.

My education was not being judged, but my ability to teach and the quality of teaching.

However, what I will say is that the system stinks and there are teachers I know who have no choice but to teach subjects they aren't qualified to.
I left the profession when I was forced to teach/ not just temp cover Advanced Maths when my skills in Maths are those of Ks2.
The Union didn't want to know.

My dd was told off for telling her teacher that polar bears and penguins only met in zoos.